[Paul OConnor]

Phil,
What about the rest?

[PCCraig]

Which of these Chicago area contenders will be the next to host a PGA tournament? Or a US Open?

1. Butler National
2. Chicago Highlands
3. Conway Farms
4. Medinah #3
5. Olympia Fields North
6. Rich Harvest Farms

Cog Hill not included because they will be hosting the BMW this fall.  And Medinah's 2012 Ryder Cup not included.

Paul,

Conway Farms??

[Paul OConnor]

Conway Farms + Lake Forest + Expensive German Luxury Automobiles = Perfect Location

[Phil McDade]

Phil, it's hard to imagine the USGA abandoning the history of Pebble and Oakmont, let alone some of the other historic venues.

George:

There is no more historic course in the game, as far as the development and popularization of golf in this country, than TCC at Brookline; Ouimet's win there was a truly seminal event in American sporting history. If the USGA can abandon that course (or the other way around), I'm not sure any historic course is safe.

Pebble has had great US Opens, but its history only goes back to 1972 as a US Open venue.

[PCCraig]

Conway Farms + Lake Forest + Expensive German Luxury Automobiles = Perfect Location

Paul:

There is very little infrastructure to host an event the size of the BMW at and around Conway Farms. It's land locked by residential homes, 294, no extra land for corporate tents or parking, and the golf course isn't much to write home about in terms of interest and drawing fans to the event.

I think the site selection is more complicated than selling a few BMW's to guys in Lake Forest who either a) drive a lot nicer cars than BMW's, or b) can't afford one anymore because they underwater on their ugly home and their HELOC is maxed out. 

[PCCraig]

It's an unbelievable golf course - excellent in every way - great green contours, great fairway undulations, terrific terrain for golf, and it has plenty of room to hold everything necessary to support the logistics.  I's long enough, it's tough enough, and it's got excellent architecture, as well as being able to handle the logistics.  I was a doubter until I went and saw it and now I'm a believer. Oakland Hills is much better than every other major venue I've seen except Oakmont and Augusta and it's tied with Winged Foot. (IMHO)

Yes Jay, I've actually played it. It's a very good golf course, but I don't understand how you gather it deserves a US Open anymore than the 20 or so other worthy courses listed on this thread?

Oakland Hills will remain in bed with the PGA and host an event every 10 to 15 years. We all know the USGA and PGA don't like to cross swords when it comes to host sites.

[David Egan]

Conway Farms + Lake Forest + Expensive German Luxury Automobiles = Perfect Location

Paul:

There is very little infrastructure to host an event the size of the BMW at and around Conway Farms. It's land locked by residential homes, 294, no extra land for corporate tents or parking, and the golf course isn't much to write home about in terms of interest and drawing fans to the event.

I think the site selection is more complicated than selling a few BMW's to guys in Lake Forest who either a) drive a lot nicer cars than BMW's, or b) can't afford one anymore because they underwater on their ugly home and their HELOC is maxed out. 

I was at Conway a couple weeks ago and some people there seemed to think they were in the running for the Western next time it was in Chicago.

[Howard Riefs]

Oakland Hills will remain in bed with the PGA and host an event every 10 to 15 years. We all know the USGA and PGA don't like to cross swords when it comes to host sites.

A timely discussion. The Detroit News today reports that "Oakland Hills Country Club is in negotiations with the United States Golf Association to host the U.S. Open as early as 2020."

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110712/SPORTS04/107120354/Oakland-Hills-aims-to-host-U.S.-Open-in-2020

[George Pazin]

Phil, it's hard to imagine the USGA abandoning the history of Pebble and Oakmont, let alone some of the other historic venues.

George:

There is no more historic course in the game, as far as the development and popularization of golf in this country, than TCC at Brookline; Ouimet's win there was a truly seminal event in American sporting history. If the USGA can abandon that course (or the other way around), I'm not sure any historic course is safe.

Pebble has had great US Opens, but its history only goes back to 1972 as a US Open venue.

I didn't mean it's hard to imagine in the "Could it happen?" sense, I meant it in the "Would it happen?" sense. Ouimet's win is important to golf geeks and historians, but how many of today's golfers or general sports fans know who he was or where he won? Oakmont's and Pebble's histories are much more relevant, both in immediacy and visibility. Oakmont is Oakmont, and Pebble has hosted what are arguably 3 of the 5 or 10 best US Opens of the last 50 years, which encompasses most of the TV era.

[Paul OConnor]

Phil,
It looks like there is plenty of room on the old Conway farm for corporate tents, and lots of office building parking available for weekend spectator parking pretty close by.  With 294 and Rt 41 both close, and since the area handles a fair amount of traffic most days from the local office complexes,  logistically, it would seem to be a pretty good choice.  

The course is ~7200 yards par 71.  That's plenty.   Hell the PGA guys are shredding every course they play these days anyway.  Who cares if the winner is -18, more fun for everyone.  And for sure no one gives a shit about the architectural merit of the course.  I can hear the announcers now,  "...boy, if it weren't for all these unsightly cartpaths, this course might be almost ok..."  Not.

[Bill_McBride]

Phil, it's hard to imagine the USGA abandoning the history of Pebble and Oakmont, let alone some of the other historic venues.

George:

There is no more historic course in the game, as far as the development and popularization of golf in this country, than TCC at Brookline; Ouimet's win there was a truly seminal event in American sporting history. If the USGA can abandon that course (or the other way around), I'm not sure any historic course is safe.

Pebble has had great US Opens, but its history only goes back to 1972 as a US Open venue.

I'm still shocked that the 2013 Open won't be at Brookline.  And disappointed.

[PCCraig]

Phil,
It looks like there is plenty of room on the old Conway farm for corporate tents, and lots of office building parking available for weekend spectator parking pretty close by.  With 294 and Rt 41 both close, and since the area handles a fair amount of traffic most days from the local office complexes,  logistically, it would seem to be a pretty good choice.  

The course is ~7200 yards par 71.  That's plenty.   Hell the PGA guys are shredding every course they play these days anyway.  Who cares if the winner is -18, more fun for everyone.  And for sure no one gives a shit about the architectural merit of the course.  I can hear the announcers now,  "...boy, if it weren't for all these unsightly cartpaths, this course might be almost ok..."  Not.

I was curious and looked around google maps for an overhead view and assuming that all the landowners (LF High, etc...) in the area (including the forest preserve) get on board, it would still be tight.

I never said anything about the "architectural merit of the course", what I meant was that the course doesn't hold much interest for a casual golf fun. It's not a Medinah, Cog Hill, or Olympia Fields..."Big" names in Chicago golf.

If they get the event I would be shocked, but at the same time happy for the membership...who are a nice group of hardcore golfers.

[Jay Flemma]

Oakland Hills will remain in bed with the PGA and host an event every 10 to 15 years. We all know the USGA and PGA don't like to cross swords when it comes to host sites.

A timely discussion. The Detroit News today reports that "Oakland Hills Country Club is in negotiations with the United States Golf Association to host the U.S. Open as early as 2020."

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110712/SPORTS04/107120354/Oakland-Hills-aims-to-host-U.S.-Open-in-2020

And further, when I asked some questions to Mike Davis at the Open about Oakland Hills, he said there was a movement afoot to break down the misconception about there being "US Open courses" and PGA courses, citing OHCC as an excellent example of a course that would be a great course to host an Open once again.  He also said he and the PGA are constantly in contact about trading venues back and forth, it just hadn't happened in a while...

Moreover, they also get the 2016 U.S. amateur for certain.

[Michael George]

I am glad that the US Open is exploring new courses.  It is fun to see courses that are not only great tests of golf, but also great courses in which to watch golf.    

US Opens at Pebble, Oakmont, Pinehurst and Shinnecock Hills are great set-ups for both the test and fan enjoyment.  Baltusrol, Olympic and Oakland Hills are great tests, but not exciting courses to watch the open.  Congressional and Olympia Fields should be done for good.  

I am optimistic that Erin Hills and Chambers Bay will be fun venues to watch the Open.  Hopefully, they will prove to be good of tests and can be added to the rotation.  I am sure that the USGA is looking at Colorado GC as a potential Denver site.    

Unfortunately, I think CC at Brookline is getting squeezed out of the rotation because it cannot handle the facilities needed to accomodate the hospitality tents that create the large on-site profits for the USGA.  I think in 2013, we will be watching the last open at Merion for the same reason.  Notice how Pinehurst immediatly follows Merion.  Most profitable US Open venue follows a venue that will be least profitable in many years.  

USGA is likely looking for new venues in the Phily and Boston markets.  Would not be surprised if Aronomink was added as a Phily site at some time.  Don't know what course in Boston could handle the event.

I think Erin Hills is the USGA's answer to the Chicago market.  They chose it over Cog Hill and I think they view any course within 1 hour of the market as in that market.  

[Paul OConnor]

I'm sure how fast you drive, but Erin Hills is about 130 miles from downtown Chicago.

[Sven Nilsen]

I think Erin Hills is the USGA's answer to the Chicago market.  They chose it over Cog Hill and I think they view any course within 1 hour of the market as in that market.  

How familiar are you with midwestern geography?  If Erin Hills were within the one hour circle of Chicago, this debate would not be taking place.

[Howard Riefs]

I think Erin Hills is the USGA's answer to the Chicago market.  They chose it over Cog Hill and I think they view any course within 1 hour of the market as in that market.  

I like to think of Milwaukee as a Chicago suburb but it's just not realistic.

[Phil McDade]

Phil, it's hard to imagine the USGA abandoning the history of Pebble and Oakmont, let alone some of the other historic venues.

George:

There is no more historic course in the game, as far as the development and popularization of golf in this country, than TCC at Brookline; Ouimet's win there was a truly seminal event in American sporting history. If the USGA can abandon that course (or the other way around), I'm not sure any historic course is safe.

Pebble has had great US Opens, but its history only goes back to 1972 as a US Open venue.

I didn't mean it's hard to imagine in the "Could it happen?" sense, I meant it in the "Would it happen?" sense. Ouimet's win is important to golf geeks and historians, but how many of today's golfers or general sports fans know who he was or where he won? Oakmont's and Pebble's histories are much more relevant, both in immediacy and visibility. Oakmont is Oakmont, and Pebble has hosted what are arguably 3 of the 5 or 10 best US Opens of the last 50 years, which encompasses most of the TV era.

George:

The last US Open at Merion was 30 years ago -- well before the US Open became the monstrosity it is today, and beyond the memory of most playing the game today -- and the USGA clearly went back there for historic reasons. And there are legitimate questions about whether the course has the length to handle the current technology without succumbing to record numbers of under-par rounds. I hope it doesn't, but I could see it happening.

In some ways, Merion may become the litmus test for whether a great but old classic course with limitations on lengthening can stand up to the technology and power of today's game. I have my doubts, and I think it's naive to think that Chambers Bay and Erin Hills weren't chosen for their ability to be significantly lengthened when their turn comes.

I think both Pebble (mainly because of its very tough greens and very difficult summer conditions) and Oakmont can handle a US Open for the next 15 years or so. After that? I'm not so sure. (Does Oakmont have the room to get much longer? I think I will live to see an 8,000-yard US Open, probably at either Chambers Bay or Erin Hills.)

[Paul OConnor]

"Congressional and Olympia Fields should be done for good."

eh?  Are you smokin' that crack again boy?

[Phil McDade]

I think Erin Hills is the USGA's answer to the Chicago market.  They chose it over Cog Hill and I think they view any course within 1 hour of the market as in that market.  

I like to think of Milwaukee as a Chicago suburb but it's just not realistic.

It's not really a Chicago market; it's a Midwestern market. The USGA is clearly interested in moving its biggest and most important championship around the country, in a somewhat even-handed way, for fan and financial reasons. It's why they moved to Torrey Pines and Chambers Bay, because they wanted a West Coast presence more often than just Pebble Beach. It's why they've gone to Pinehurst in the South three times since 1999. Given their druthers, I think they'd prefer to be in Chicago, but for alot of reasons ended up at Erin Hills.

[Ted Cahill]

To be frank, I'm not that excited to see the U.S. Open go to Erin Hills. The course is O.K.- but it's hard not to view it as Lang's folly.  I love Wisconsin, but does this area deserve two PGA's, a US Open, an Amateur, a senior Open, a Womens open and a Ryder Cup in the span of 15 years?  The announcement to bring the '17 Open to EH left me with the impression that the USGA had projected so much hope on EH, they couldn't walk away, despite the doubts about EH.  That open should have gone to Rivera.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ron Whitten postulates the upcoming PGA at AAC and its new and excellent bermuda greens might open up both US Open and PGA sites to the far south again.  Yeah, it will be hot, but at least the new turfs can take it without life support systems.

Personally, I don't think it can be a US Open if it doesn't get around to all feasible parts of the country regularly.  In some ways, while there would be a lot of one time infrastructure costs for the courses involved, that big picture thinking might even trump architecture as a selection criteria.  Hey, if need be, you can change the architecture a lot easier thay you can move, say, Houston, TX.

[George Pazin]

I thought Houston already moved to Nashville...

Phil, can't argue with any of that. Sure hope we don't see 8000 yards any time soon, though. I guess my point is more that I don't see the abandoning of the older private venues, whether it's Oakmont, Pebble, WF, Merion, etc., at least not in the next 20 years. Beyond that, I won't likely be around to notice. But I promise to haunt you if you're wrong!

[Phil McDade]

To be frank, I'm not that excited to see the U.S. Open go to Erin Hills. The course is O.K.- but it's hard not to view it as Lang's folly.  I love Wisconsin, but does this area deserve two PGA's, a US Open, an Amateur, a senior Open, a Womens open and a Ryder Cup in the span of 15 years?  The announcement to bring the '17 Open to EH left me with the impression that the USGA had projected so much hope on EH, they couldn't walk away, despite the doubts about EH.  That open should have gone to Rivera.  

Ted:

Most of that (the two PGAs, the Women's Open, the Ryder Cup) are Herb Kohler's doing with his Kohler-area courses. He was known to have squeezed and lobbied both the PGA and USGA for majors, and really wanted a US Open at WStraits, but the PGA offered two PGAs and the Ryder Cup, and Kohler said he couldn't turn that down. The Women's Open drew record crowds when it was hosted at Blackwolf Run in 1998; I think the USGA simply wanted to reward Kohler for a job well done the first time and bring it back.

The saga of Erin Hills, as has been detailed here and elsewhere, is quite involved and interesting, with both the course and those in this area with strong and long ties to the USGA playing a role. But I do think the USGA and Davis are very deliberately looking 20-30 years out for potential sites to host the men's Open on a somewhat semi-rota basis, and Erin Hills strikes me as a decent choice, given what else is out there and the challenges faced in asking the big-name private clubs to host it. The US Am is basically the dry run for the big one, to work out logistics, and see how certain holes play in case they need to make adjustments for the US Open.

[Tom_Doak]

To clear up a misunderstanding posted above:  I'm only consulting for Medinah #1, not #3.  And at 6700 yards, I don't think Medinah #1 is ever going to host the U.S. Open.

Also, it's a very tough course, but unless Butler National's membership rules have changed, it's not going to host a USGA event, ever.

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