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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2011, 11:47:00 AM »
JakaB,

I think some, if not many, may be under the impression that the decision to introduce fans is unchallenged at the local level.

Probably no piece of equipment garners more in the way of discussion than the purchase and use of fans on a golf course.

At a club I'm familiar with, a particular green had been under stress for years, with occassional loss and/or different playing qualities.

A fan was suggested/recommended and the results have been startlingly good.

There is a negative.

While putting, as the fan turns on its axis, the blast can be disruptive, thus golfers often wait until the fan has passed, prior to making their stroke.

I was against fans, but, like a body that gets old, greens get old, the get more traffic currently and cumulatively and they show the effects of aging.  If they can be revitalized, why not help them ?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2011, 11:52:38 AM »
Patrick,

Because every time in history man has tried to achieve perfection without risk the failure has been larger than the initial problem.  I see golf becoming so sanitary that golfers will soon no longer play.  One of the last bastions of wisdom is the ability to protest the inevitable.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2011, 12:00:28 PM »
Alan & Anthony,

whilst I understand where you are coming from you cannot help but reach the inescapable conclusion that if the grass on the green is dying now when in the past it wasn't you have either got the wrong grass or the wrong maintenance program.

Jon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2011, 12:00:58 PM »
Patrick,

Because every time in history man has tried to achieve perfection without risk the failure has been larger than the initial problem. 

Do you still ride a horse to your destinations or do you use a car, train or plane ?


I see golf becoming so sanitary that golfers will soon no longer play. 

I see that in the architecture, but not in the agronomics and I think there's a huge distinction.

NGLA, Seminole, Maidstone, Bandon, Pebble Beach all have fans, you just don't have to pay for the electricity since it's on Mother Nature's dime.
Why object to a process that benefits playing conditions and preserves your most vital asset, the greens ?


One of the last bastions of wisdom is the ability to protest the inevitable.

You could say the same thing about insanity  ;D


Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2011, 12:12:05 PM »
Alan & Anthony,

whilst I understand where you are coming from you cannot help but reach the inescapable conclusion that if the grass on the green is dying now when in the past it wasn't you have either got the wrong grass or the wrong maintenance program.

Jon

Jon,
  I am not as familiar with the workings of PV as Alan is, but no one has said that they would lose r have lost grass in year past because they didn't have fans. They may have lost a lot of grass 20 years ago, but the maintenance standards of membership today does not allow for any turf loss, let alone disease and turf thinning.
  As Mr. Mucci stated, he was against the use of fans, but the green that was in suggestion was stuggling with turf loss of some kind. A fan has been installed and it is apparently better. I guess that it boils down to what the membership can tolerate,but also what they can remember from 20 years ago.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2011, 12:20:22 PM »
Anthony,

Not that many years ago I played PV and the greens were at 6 at best.

They were having real problems and had to slow the greens down in order for them to survive.

Losing greens isn't good for golf and certainly isn't good for job security.

I think more than a few courses fired their superintendents when the greens were lost.
I know of one where the Green Chairman insisted that the greens be cut to lower heights to improve speed.
The Super called me and asked me what to do.  I told him to go to the President and explain that the mandate he was being given was contrary to his professional opinion based on his education, training and experience and that he would lose the greens if the mandate was executed.

Unfortunately, he didn't heed my advice, executed the mandate, and shortly thereafter, the club executed him.

There's a delicate balancing act when it comes to green speeds and Mother Nature.
Noone knows that more than you and the other superintendents.

You'll notice that everyone objecting to fans is a member or just plays golf.
Their job doesn't hang in the balance, based on the condition and playing qualities of the putting surfaces.

In other words, talk is cheap and they're not at risk.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2011, 12:42:03 PM »
Patrick,

I'm sure you run some sort of business and have also raised children.  99% of the time someone comes to you with a problem the solution is for them to do better with what they have.  Few supers do not already own a saw or a hose and some extra time.  Do you recall the last time you went to your Father with a problem and he asked you how much money you needed to fix it?  We can all do better.

I am a risk junkie in that I am willing to accept an occasional failure to take a shot at greatness. To say I don't put anything at risk by joining private clubs at great expense and use of time is insulting.  The government will support supers who choose to not take a chance or fail and society will greatly reward those who succeed.  Sometimes a man needs to fall to give another mans son a shot.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2011, 12:51:37 PM »
Alan & Anthony,

whilst I understand where you are coming from you cannot help but reach the inescapable conclusion that if the grass on the green is dying now when in the past it wasn't you have either got the wrong grass or the wrong maintenance program.

Jon

Jon
you're right, to a point.... - everywhere is different so in some cases bad management/poor turf selection etc could result in a screwed up green that a fan may temporarily fix. In many cases it's climate/local conditions - for example the big push on bentgrass in the south over the last 20 years or the aforementioned need for faster speed and ever better conditioning over the years puts turf under a lot of stress, and turf that may have been fine before now may start having issues.... Also, as eluded to above, everything matures, be it the green itself (turf changes ie poa, percolation rates go down, drains fail etc) or the surrounding areas (buildings, trees, brush, etc) that change, so what once may have been, now is very different and it may not be feasible to change. Or in a new construction case, maybe the site wasn't the best suited for turf growth to start with...... However any superintendent worth his salt will (or try anyway to) fix any underlining problems first and use the fan as a last resort or as an added benefit if needed.

To say that something survived in the past and now dies without a fan can be solely blamed on grass selection or bad management without knowing the locations, history, microclimate etc is just wrong.

Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2011, 01:12:28 PM »
I am sure the turf standards are significantly better even at Pine Valley than 25 years ago.  

Chris,

if this is true then why do they need life support systems now? This desire for speed is industry driven and not for the good of the game, the clubs or the golfer. The only people benefitting is big business :-[

Jon

I think that these tools are used as we have continued to push grasses to the edge in terms of mowing heights in search of faster speeds and faster speeds on a more consistent basis. I am not sure I'd agree that the desire for speed is industry driven versus say golfer driven.  Once golfers are given a taste of championship quality, smooth, fast greens who can blame them for no longer accepting what was once acceptable--greens in the 7-8 speed range.

I would love to have healthier greens mowed at .150 instead of being caught up in the arms race of green speed and I am in the business.  Golfers today are less interested in the merits of the course or the common cameraderie of membership and more interested in impressive facilities and fast greens.  I am not wholly unsympathetic to that.  Why not want the best and why not want it as often as possible?  It comes at a price that more and more will find too expensive and I see the trend developing where the high end will continue to have sufficent capital to pay for that experience and where there is a race to the bottom for everyone else to see what the level it is that golfers will accept as standards decline.  Along the way, alot of really solid courses and clubs will get crushed.  

I don't want to sound too defensive as someone in the business as I also am a dues paying member at a club and I appreciate the desire for getting value for what I pay for.  As much as JK can push buttons though, I think he is dead on when he points out (harshly at times) that golfers expecting top notch conditions must pay for it and many golfers have totally unrealisitc expectations as to what costs go into maintaining a course at a high level.  There are also those that want golf at $25 per round and don't understand that in most US locations, that is simply not possible unless you are playing a course with what most would consider poor conditions.  Golf is expensive in this country.  

Maybe Melvin is right and courses should not be built in those places it is ill suited for :(  That surely wouldn't be growing the game though.

It would be less expensive and healthier for the grass to have a higher height of cut in most every situation.  But, golfers will not accept a step back even if it is for the good of the game, better for the environment and more sustainable financially.  Golfers, understandibly, will simply hop from course to course in search of the best experience (i.e. for Americans, lush turf, big clubhouses and fast greens) and those that can't provide that will close with a few in high population areas perhaps hanging on as "pastures" of cheap golf that can push high volume.

In sum, no operater I know in "the industry" is pushing for faster greens.  "Big business" in this case is a bogeyman and excuse for giving golfers a taste of what was not sustainable for many faciltiies.

PS  I speak of this as an operater who has a 38 year history of not one operating or capital assessments and a dues structure 30% less than most of my surrounding courses.  Good, affordable golf is possible but even what I offer is "expensive".  If the industry was guilty of anything it was not recognizing how expensive a game golf is even at "lesser" clubs.  The elite clubs, particualrly a PV is so off the charts "unreal" in terms of cost for 99% of golfers it is a shame that their level is held up as one that should be strived for.

We live in a society that has "jumbo" mortgages, people making $50k driving around in Mercedes and Lexus cars, and where we are in a Catch-22 in some reagrds with consumer debt and spending which is ridiculously high and yet neccesary to keep the economy moving along.  It's not just this generation.  For example, prior to WW II the notion of mortgaging the next thirty years of one's life to pay for a house would have been considered nuts.  I am not suggesting that home ownership and the use of mrtgage debt wasn't overwhelmingly a positive thing but our mindsets have changed enormously and bigger, badder, faster, and more expensive is "par for the course" with little regard in some cases to cost .    

  

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2011, 01:31:50 PM »
Chris Cupit,that's a great post.

The part about a lot of golfers/members wanting perfect conditions without having a clue as to the cost required really resonates with me.Anybody who's ever served on a club's Board or Green Committee can tell horror stories.

I agree with you about JK's method/madness.He's dead right--but not everyone appreciates his "playfulness".

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2011, 06:08:17 PM »
Chris,

good post.

Alan,

to me tree, bushes and their maintenance are part of a complete programme. Also, if a membership is demanding fast green speeds and this leads to cutting the sward below a naturally sustainable level then that is a poor management programme. The original question was why PV needed fans and no matter how you look at it it is because the management programme is not able to produce the quality of sward desired without them meaning the programme is flawed.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2011, 06:31:47 PM »
Jon

While I understand and sympathize with your PoV, I don't necessarily think management programs are poor because they use fans etc.  I think the programs evolve with the knowledge that fans etc are available tools to achieve what shoudn't really be achievable.  I don't like because we all know these tools take us farther away from the local environment which helps make courses unique and varied.  In golf we started with trying to homogenize designs now we are trying to homogenize playing conditions.  Maybe we should play indoors on astro-turf?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2011, 06:40:47 PM »
Sean & Jon,

Temperatures are approaching 100 with high humidity in Clementon.

So, the question is, do you want to play on greens that run at 11 or at 6 ?

Remember, PV has an international membership.
Do the members, who travel great distances to play the course, along with their guests, want to play PV when the greens are at 6 ?

Would you ?

I've played the course when the greens were at 6 and it wasn't much fun when you reached the green.

It's interesting that no one has complained about sub-air systems in greens, so why the complaint about fans ?

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2011, 09:00:47 PM »
A simple answer may be that the fans are so visible, unlike sub air, and it takes away from the visual appeal.  I hate the sight of fans too, but I hate the sight of dead grass even more so I am ok with them during the 3 months or so of summer

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2011, 10:01:02 PM »
IMO, allen hit the nail on the head with the following statement:
However any superintendent worth his salt will (or try anyway to) fix any underlining problems first and use the fan as a last resort or as an added benefit if needed. Key wording here is LAST RESORT
They should be used as a last resort and we donīt know if that was the case at Pine Valley. We donīt know if the native push up greens are sand but I suspect they are and what is the infiltration and perculation rate of that sand and what was it 20 years ago. Have they tried to resurface eliminating the poa and using one of the better new bents? Are they 100% poa or 80% or 50%? If they were resurfaced in the past how long ago, how long did it take the poa to move back in and what programs were installed to combat the re-invasion. Pressure for lowering height of cuts has lead to many new problems but there have been great advances with in technology to counter act or balance out the problem of lowering height of cuts (in some instances but not always) which lead to increased speed. Also in my opinion, I beleive the majority of the golfing membership at any club would be satisifed to have greens, grain free and running true, at a stemp meter of nine during two months of stress per year. In conclusion, I gotta think PV has to have a top superintendent and acess to top notch consultants and most likely the fans are there because every possible avenue has been taking in the past and the results are they had to install as a last resort.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2011, 11:19:20 PM »
Chris,

They've done a reasonably good job of recessing them away from the playing area, but, the further they're recessed from the playing area, the less effective they are.

I suspect that quieter fans are on the drawing boards

At # 10 the fan was back right, almost in the walkway to the 11th tee.
Other holes had them far removed from play.

This is much ado about nothing from people who aren't intimately familiar with PV.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2011, 11:31:20 PM »
JakaB,

Like it or not, the golfing world has embraced fast greens.


Yes and they have also embraced excuses for mechanical devices.  Someone needs to take a stance.  I hereby give my word that I will not accept an invite to play Pine Valley under any circumstance where green fans are in place, on or off, during my play.  There are plenty of other great courses for me to travel to enjoy who have not felt the need to follow silly trends at the expense of greatness.  Sadly I do not have the luxury of such a boycott of my home course, as when you are married to a place you accept flaws that you would not from a mistress.

You know, I have not played a course with fans in over a decade, so when you do get an invite to turn down, let me take your place just to see how the fans are at Pine Valley, LOL
It's all about the golf!

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2011, 07:56:23 AM »
Alan,

to me tree, bushes and their maintenance are part of a complete programme. Also, if a membership is demanding fast green speeds and this leads to cutting the sward below a naturally sustainable level then that is a poor management programme. The original question was why PV needed fans and no matter how you look at it it is because the management programme is not able to produce the quality of sward desired without them meaning the programme is flawed.

Jon

Jon
I agree trees & brush management is part of a compete program and if you read my first post it says clearly that they have worked on that too - although there are so many trees on the site that sometimes it's hard to tell how much was removed, so it is part of the solution and one that is being taken care of.

Who said the greens were being mowed below a naturally sustainable level to achieve the speeds they want? I didn't and since they're not shaved down, your comment has no merit - it's based on an assumption. So say that it "is because the management programme is not able to produce the quality of sward desired without them meaning the programme is flawed" without knowing the facility and having experienced the ins and outs of managing the turf there, is out of line

Like I mentioned before, I can see your point and there are instances at other facilities where poor management may be the cause but since this thread is about PV and it has the resources to fix any issues, has, and will continue to, your comments are not factual and out of line.

Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2011, 08:08:03 AM »

They should be used as a last resort and we donīt know if that was the case at Pine Valley. We donīt know if the native push up greens are sand but I suspect they are and what is the infiltration and perculation rate of that sand and what was it 20 years ago. Have they tried to resurface eliminating the poa and using one of the better new bents? Are they 100% poa or 80% or 50%? If they were resurfaced in the past how long ago, how long did it take the poa to move back in and what programs were installed to combat the re-invasion.


FWIW the greens are old push-ups originally designed to hold water - a different philosophy to now when they were built at the beginning of the last century. They have been working on improving drainage on them and it is providing great results.

The greens are 100% poa - and being so it retains its 'Pine Valleyness' - I really think bentgrass (or heavens forbid, rebuild) would take a little something away, and considering the pockets/hollows some of the greens are in and considering the trees etc during the dog days of summer bentgrass there would at time require fans also to keep them in top condition

The fans are a tool to help with the two situations above, help cool the poa on hot days and more importantly help dry them out on humid days with no air movement or after a rain event during the summer when it need it the most.



Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2011, 11:00:22 AM »
Alan,
Now you have opened a whole new debate question, would Pine Valley be better if they had quality year round bent greens on the original designed natural green contours?? My preference would be to have quality bent green years round in any golfing experience even if your number one in the world. As I am sure you know the majority of the poaīs are annuals, they die, they finish their life cycle, therefore the surfaces become inconsistent during what we could call a micro transition phase.(Fans or no fans your not gonna stop the plant from completing it,s life cycle only make it cooler when it dies and a little more comfortable) Then you have the seed head stage, the ball jumps and makes strange unpredictible turns and the luck factor in putting increases. If having truer and more consistent greens year around could take away any level of greatness in a course, we need to look hard who is defining greatness.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2011, 09:09:07 PM »
Randy,

Having played there in the spring, summer and fall, I've found the greens, with few exceptions, to putt fast and true.

Poa is the predominant grass in our area and it's a great putting surface.

It has it's moments, but, on balance, it's been a great putting surface.

My favorite, German or Velvent Bent, but, it's a rare find these days, most greens have been contaminated with Poa.

I wonder, in a spikeless environement, if the contamination process has slowed down

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2011, 09:11:26 PM »
I played Metedeconk recently.

Metedeconk was one of the first courses to employ fans in these parts.

I couldn't find a fan.

They seemed to have removed them all, except for portable fans, which were employed on one green.

However, they did cut back a considerable amount of tree cover and underbrush around all of their greens.

Perhaps, that's a good example for PV.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2011, 11:25:53 PM »
Patrick,
if you could control the seedheads you might could get it into a great putting surface catagory but untill that happens, have to disagree that it a great grass for putting surfaces. But velvet is incredible and that I have to agree with you on. One almost feels guilty walking on a velvet green its so damm pretty. I am surprised there wasnīt more work  done in the past trying to improve that variety.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2011, 11:47:39 PM »
Randy,

I understand that there's a new strain of velvet that's been arround for a few years.

I think it has a limited Latitude, being a cool weather grass.

My home course was ALL velvet, but now, probably 15 % or less is velvet and it can't seem to compete.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was done wrong at Pine Valley to cause them to install fans...
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2011, 11:58:34 PM »
patrick,
I grew up in Massachusetts and you would come across some here and there but it seemed to be more patches than complete greens. You could find much of the same in New hampshire and Vermont in some of the older clubs. What is your area?

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