[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

Some of the fans are hardly noticeable.

Hence, I'll take great holes anytime.

It's interesting that courses can have buildings next to them, like at TOC and Friar's Head, but god forbid a fan be introduced off of the green area.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie,

Patrick I mentioned that I thought TOC and Pebble Beach are not outlandish choices for #1, I don't personally think they are but if someone who had played Pebble, TOC, and Pine Valley an equal number of times I wouldn't consider them to be an idiot if they said any of the three were better than the other two.

How many times have you played each of TOC, Pebble Beach and Pine Valley?

Of course the all knowing poobah comes out whenever someone mentions Pine Valley. Oh how wonderful of you to grace us with your presence.

I've played Pebble twice, TOC three times, and not played Pine Valley. I have walked the course twice during the Crump Cup.

From what I have seen of the courses, I do think Pine Valley is the best of the three. Pebble loses some ground over PV given that holes 6-10 are very similar, not identical but similar. And I don't like the routing out in the hook at TOC. But as I said, I wouldn't consider someone an idiot if they were to say Pebble or TOC to be better than PV, I just wouldn't agree with them.

How many times have you played each course, yee Grand PooBah of GolfClubAtlas?

[Scott Warren]

Jamie, you're behaving childishly because you realise that many of you grand proclamations about Pine Valley, such as that it is "unplayable for anyone above a 10 handicap", are lunacy and that you're entirely unqualified to make such claims.

How many >10 handicap golfers did you watch when you visited the Crump Cup?

Like you, I have visited but not played one of the three courses in question, so I wouldn't kid myself I could make a meaningful comment on its merits (or its relative quality) that would hold up to the scrutiny of those who have played it.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie, you're behaving childishly because you realise that many of you grand proclamations about Pine Valley, such as that it is "unplayable for anyone above a 10 handicap", are lunacy and that you're entirely unqualified to make such claims.

No, I'm less qualified than others, but not unqualified. Walking out there during the Crump is odd, to say the least. There are no ropes or anything else, you can walk right on the tees, on the greens, bring balls and roll them, walk down into bunkers, all kinds of craziness. As far as what I said in the past, unplayable might be too much, but at the very least, a 10 handicap won't score well, might have fun simply because of where he is, but probably won't score well.

How many >10 handicap golfers did you watch when you visited the Crump Cup?

Well, I suspect since I was there on Sunday, for the final matches, I didn't see any 10 handicap players. I would reckon they were all sub-scratch or at least very close.

Like you, I have visited but not played one of the three courses in question, so I wouldn't kid myself I could make a meaningful comment on its merits (or its relative quality) that would hold up to the scrutiny of those who have played it.

I just don't agree with that in this case. One can look down the card while going about the course at PV, looking at difference in shots likely to be played, difference in shots, difference in hole lengths, and so forth. From that, I don't think I'm alone in saying that PV has better shot variety than Pebble, and in truth, better than TOC. But like I said, I wouldn't fault someone for saying that PB was better or TOC was better. And if you've walked TOC on a Sunday, down the fairways and such, I would say you could comment just the same as I am; TOC or Pebble during tournament play is a bit different, because you're outside the ropes and can't see the course as presented from the tees and such.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Some of the fans are hardly noticeable.

Which I assume means some are noticeable.

Hence, I'll take great holes anytime.

Shockingly, we disagree. I don't care how great the hole is if it has fans around the greens.

It's interesting that courses can have buildings next to them, like at TOC and Friar's Head, but god forbid a fan be introduced off of the green area.

Can you think of any buildings at TOC and Friar's Head that are as close to the greens as Pine Valley's fans? Even the building near TOC aren't actually on the playing surface. They are off the course. 

Cheers,
Dan King

I'm a golfaholic, no question about that. Counseling wouldn't help me. They'd have to put me in prison, and then I'd talk the warden into building a hole or two and teach him how to play.
 --Lee Trevino

[David_Elvins]

There are no ropes or anything else, you can walk right on the tees, on the greens, bring balls and roll them, walk down into bunkers, all kinds of craziness.

Could you curl up and hide in the devils a__hole?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

I played with several 10 handicaps who played very well at PV this past weekend.

One birdied # 8 and # 10 and made pars at # 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 14, 16, 17 and 18.

Others birdied # 3, parred # 5, and parred many of the more difficult holes, like # 13.

Those that are wild off the tee will struggle at PV, although, I 've never seen a golfer have a bad lie in the woods in a non-competitive round.

Members and guests who play PV well aren't restricted to low handicaps.

It's a course that allows higher handicaps to score despite disaster lurking at every hole.

It's avoiding the big number that's the key.
The straight hitter, on those wide fairways and large greens will do quite well.

And, if a golfer takes a 10 on a hole and loses the hole to an 8, who cares other than the golfer who thinks, "if only I had made a 7."

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie,

I played with several 10 handicaps who played very well at PV this past weekend.

One birdied # 8 and # 10 and made pars at # 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 14, 16, 17 and 18.

Others birdied # 3, parred # 5, and parred many of the more difficult holes, like # 13.

Those that are wild off the tee will struggle at PV, although, I 've never seen a golfer have a bad lie in the woods in a non-competitive round.

Members and guests who play PV well aren't restricted to low handicaps.

It's a course that allows higher handicaps to score despite disaster lurking at every hole.

It's avoiding the big number that's the key.
The straight hitter, on those wide fairways and large greens will do quite well.

And, if a golfer takes a 10 on a hole and loses the hole to an 8, who cares other than the golfer who thinks, "if only I had made a 7."

You make a good point. A 10 or so who is a good course manager and understands his limitations could probably mosey around quite well. But I've played with far more 10's who thought they were 2's and thought they could pull off the impossible and such, than good course managers. The guy I played with this past weekend was the former. He's the kind who would think the best play for him on 8 would be to try and drive his tee shot into the bunkers surrounding the green and then spending the next 20 minutes ping-ponging the ball from one side of the green to the other, bunker to bunker and taking a 20 unless someone told him to pick it up and move along. Thats what I mean, if that 10 is a bad course manager, well, there's a good change he'll have a long day; unless he's intelligent enough to listen to his caddie.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

There are no ropes or anything else, you can walk right on the tees, on the greens, bring balls and roll them, walk down into bunkers, all kinds of craziness.

Could you curl up and hide in the devils a__hole?  

Well, you'd probably get trampled to death if you did, I think every person I saw around that green walked down in there.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Pine Valley has a good number of International members from Germany, so maybe you're just out of the loop.

Indeed, if that were so, it'd surprise me. Although a "good number" being 3 or 4 wouldn't

Ulrich

[David Harshbarger]

.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,

I didn't say that the holes looked similar, only that there were degrees of similarity and there is a distinction between the two.
There's certainly a similarity with # 15 and # 16 at CPC.  The holes may be differing lengths but the look has a similarity.

There's no such similarity at PV.

Patrick

Correct me if I am wrong ( I'm sure you will no doubt ) but didn't you just contradict yourself ?

You didn't say the holes look similar but then the look has a similarity

Don't most of the the holes look similar from the tee at PV - a sandy wasteland to cover ?

[JMEvensky]

One can't be a "golfer" and not know what Pine Valley is.

This is the slippery-est of slopes--but I agree and understand your point.

Making the distinction between "golfer" and "someone who plays golf" rarely wins friends or influences people.My guess is that you know this from experience--as do I.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

I didn't say that the holes looked similar, only that there were degrees of similarity and there is a distinction between the two.
There's certainly a similarity with # 15 and # 16 at CPC.  The holes may be differing lengths but the look has a similarity.

There's no such similarity at PV.

Patrick

Correct me if I am wrong ( I'm sure you will no doubt ) but didn't you just contradict yourself ?

You didn't say the holes look similar but then the look has a similarity

Don't most of the the holes look similar from the tee at PV - a sandy wasteland to cover ?

No, there's no similarity that meets the eye as you stand on the tee and in the DZ on each and every hole.
That's one of the things I've emphasized that each hole is so distinct.
Hole after hole after hole presents a different view.

If you want to stretch the issue, yes, the sky looks similar as does the coloring of the grass and trees.

Interestingly enough, I studied the coloration of the sand in the bunkers and found great variety, from reddish brown to grey to whitish grey.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

I understand the reckless, poor course manager type, but something unique happens to those types when they play PV.

First, they're intimidated, they lose some of that bravado.

Secondly, PV has a great cadre of caddies and the caddies aren't shy about offering their expertise and experience.

Classic amongst them is "Rocky".

The caddies manage the course and their steed's game quite well.
Their knowledge base is exceptional.

Many golfers could improve their game, not with lessons or swing tips, but, with better course management decisions as they play the course.  And that's what the caddies at PV help to achieve.

[Sean Leary]

Plus the caddies there tee up your ball into good lies when you it it into the crap .

I had heard this but didn't believe it until it happened to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

If they didn't, you'd be out there all day.
Going back to the tee after taking an unplayable a few times would tie up the entire golf course.
Now, if you paid the caddies by the hour you might find things different.
That doesn't happen in competitions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

An interesting note.

It seems that golfers or caddies have figured out a new way to get out of the Devil's AH bunker.

They take a rescue club and hit it to the right front corner of the bunker.

The configuration of that portion of the bunker is something like a loop d loop on a roller coaster and propels the ball up onto the green.

I didn't see anyone hit it into that bunker during my three days, but, members and caddies told me about the newly discovered method for extrication.

[Carr Harris]

Plus the caddies their tee up your ball into good lies when you it it into the crap .

I had heard this but didn't believe it until it happened to me.

Sean I wondered this too.

I blew my tee shot on #8 way right with my caddie forecaddying and got up there to find my ball sitting perfectly in the scrub leaving a wide open wedge to the left green. There was nothing but unplayable lies less than 6 feet in all directions. It certainly could've been good fortune but I found it to be just a little bit too fortunate.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

If they didn't, you'd be out there all day.
Going back to the tee after taking an unplayable a few times would tie up the entire golf course.
Now, if you paid the caddies by the hour you might find things different.
That doesn't happen in competitions.

I am losing hope.  So we now have to cheat to finish the number one course in the world. I had a caddie do this for me last year, at another great course, and called a two shot penalty on myself during a $100/hole money game.  The caddie begged me not to tell my opponent as it really caused no harm.  I think the kid learned a lesson.

[Dale_McCallon]

I've never played PV, but the last few posts about the place seem very contradictory.  First we're told that 10 handicaps can handle the place and the caddies do such a great job navigating them out of trouble.

But then we are told that the caddies make sure you have clear shots because "you be out there all day" if they didn't.  Maybe that is the norm at clubs (and I never realized), but it does seem to take away a lot from the game for me. 

So, I hit the fairway w/a long iron to make sure I'm in play..my opponent hits driver in the woods, but he'll be ok because his caddy takes care of him.  That seems totally against the grain of the game to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

Do you know how many golfers play PV that shouldn't be on that golf course at all ?

Very poor golfers who want to experience the course they've heard so much about.

Is it fair to everyone else for them to play a 6+ hour round ?

You're so off base on this issue, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

These guys aren't playing for $ 100/hole.
They're just playing to experience the golf course.
If they had to play every shot, you'd be out there for 6+ hours and they'd run out of golf balls.

When it comes to PV, because you haven't experienced it, you just don't get it.

Have you posted the $ 25,000 performance bond yet ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Have you posted the $ 25,000 performance bond yet ?

Will you pay the fee of having my agent write the bond?  I am playing golf with him today and will discuss the rather odd situation.  I am confident that Pine Valley will eventually remove the fans which will make it possible for me to play.  I just don't want to catch you toting one on to the property as I make the turn.  I am sure my agent will also be willing to write a bond guaranteeing that I will not sleep with Cameron Diaz if you would like to fund that underwriting as part of a package deal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've never played PV, but the last few posts about the place seem very contradictory.  First we're told that 10 handicaps can handle the place and the caddies do such a great job navigating them out of trouble.

Dale, not out of trouble, but, away from trouble.
There's a difference.

But then we are told that the caddies make sure you have clear shots because "you be out there all day" if they didn't. 

Who said that you'd have a "clear shot" ?

Maybe that is the norm at clubs (and I never realized), but it does seem to take away a lot from the game for me. 

That's because you've never seen PV.
You'd understand if you watched a 25 handicap trying to play the golf course.

So, I hit the fairway w/a long iron to make sure I'm in play..my opponent hits driver in the woods, but he'll be ok because his caddy takes care of him.  That seems totally against the grain of the game to me.

That's because you've confused the context.

Didn't you read the part about competition versus hacker play ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you posted the $ 25,000 performance bond yet ?

Will you pay the fee of having my agent write the bond? 

No, that's part of your "cost to play"

I am playing golf with him today and will discuss the rather odd situation.  I am confident that Pine Valley will eventually remove the fans which will make it possible for me to play. 

Don't hold your breath.
Have you ever been to Clementon in the summer ?
There's a great water park just down the road.
It gets hot and humid without much of a breeze.
The fans are unintrusive and serve a valueable purpose that allow golfers to play PV under the best of conditions, which is what most want.

I just don't want to catch you toting one on to the property as I make the turn. 

I am sure my agent will also be willing to write a bond guaranteeing that I will not sleep with Cameron Diaz if you would like to fund that underwriting as part of a package deal.

I'd like to state, unequivically, that I would not sleep while in bed with Cameron Diaz.
If you get the offer, would you mind it I stood or rather, reclined in for you ?

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