[Mike Hendren]

Question stems from my playing of the short 17th at Ross' Mimosa Hills in Morganton, NC a few weeks ago.  Smallish pushed up green that appears to be a rounded square from the tee.  Instead the back edge of the green is angled at 45 degrees.  The result is a very shallow side of the green and a very deep side that narrows considerably to a dicey back pin position.  Coupled with a bunker fronting the deeper half, it creates three distinct hole locations that require precise accuracy and/or distance.   While not present at the Mimosa HIlls hole, such a complex would easily accomodate a road bunker.  along the rear.
Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

I think this is not done more because it's often difficult to see the back line of the green and whether it is making a change of depth or not -- and lots of golfers are going to be pissed off hitting "a good shot" into one half of the green and watching it disappear off the back into trouble.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Is your statement an indication that American golfers have become spoiled and soft ?

The green  can only be deceitful  on the initial play, and with a caddy's guidance the unknown revealed rather quickly.

It would seem that the AG wants or demands that  everything laid out for them and that adversity, whether self induced or created through the architect's deception, is not well received.

When one looks at old aerials of courses like Hollywood, Shinnecock, National and others, that the challenge presented to the golfer was far more severe, especially given the quality of the equipment.

Is the culture of clubs like Oakmont, Pine Valley, SHCC, NGLA, GCGC and their peers a celebration of more demanding golf and a rejection of the spoiled modern day golfer ?

[Ed Oden]

For what it's worth, here is a picture of #17 at Mimosa Hills from the tee...



Sorry, I don't have one showing the back of the green.   But you are right, the angle on the back edge makes back pin placements very challenging.

We have several greens at Carolina Golf Club with this quality.  It's probably no coincidence that we also have a Ross designed course that has been restored by Kris Spence.

[Kalen Braley]

Here is the aerial view of it....(at least I think i got the right hole).

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=mimosa+hills&ll=35.728014,-81.709917&spn=0.000643,0.001135&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=us&cid=0,0,13714414427240036527&t=h&z=20


I really like where bogey is going with this one, looks like an interesting concept!

[Ian Andrew]

Michael,

Part of the reason is pin positions.
When you come to a "point" in the back, you limit the pin area at the corner, often to a single location.
Since this is one of the best pin positions, that's a big limitation.
While there is some space for "that" single pin position, its hard to rotate the pins in that area making the ability to use that "key" spot way too limited.

I always thought this was the secret behind the difficulty of the approach to the 16th at North Berwick.

I prefer a similar concept where the green is a trapezoid that narrows towards the back. It was a common idea used by Stanley Thompson and can be found at places like Banff Springs (old 16th is my favourite)

[Mark Johnson]

I wonder if maintainence is an issue as well.

Tom, what is the maximum angle you can create around the green without creating a maintainence problem?

[Jason Topp]

One course I play regularly has one of these from back left to the middle of the green and it is a really good hazard other than the fact you cannot see it.  The choice of hitting to the fat short portion of the green or trying to get it close is a difficult choice.  I went for it twice last year and saw slight pull hooks disappear.  The hazard works well for higher handicaps because a ball short of the green is a better option than the long pull hook.  The pin position issue can be fixed by not carrying the angle all the way across the green.

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