Our Next Big Thing

[Tim Pitner]

Congratulations, Tom.

Enjoy the upcoming year of Mullen / Polk County, Fla., trips. The courses on both sides of the route will be much anticipated by all of us.

Howard:

My trips to Polk County are mostly done ... we have six holes at Streamsong planted and a bunch more ready for grass.  My travel portfolio for the next year is not so simple though, with projects in China, France, Scotland, Australia, Chicago, Nebraska, and maybe Spain, too.

Tom,

Besides NE, how many of these are new courses?  Any further information you can reveal?  Thanks.

[Bill Brightly]

Another vote for Dismal River Nicklaus and Dismal River Doak, despite Tom's protestations. I think those names will mean something in 50 years...

[Tom_Doak]

  My travel portfolio for the next year is not so simple though, with projects in China, France, Scotland, Australia, Chicago, Nebraska, and maybe Spain, too.

Tom,

Besides NE, how many of these are new courses?  Any further information you can reveal?  Thanks.

Tim:

China, France, Spain and Nebraska are all new-course projects.  There are actually two separate courses in China [for the same client, sites 50 miles apart], and the Spanish project has land for 36 holes, although we would be very happy just to see the first one built.

"Scotland" was a reference to the new holes at The Renaissance Club ... any day now.  "Australia" was ongoing work at Royal Melbourne, although I have looked at a potential new project there, for sometime in the future.  "Chicago" is a major renovation, which I'm not sure if I'm supposed to talk about yet -- but no, it is not a major renovation of Chicago Golf Club! 

[David_Elvins]

Tom,

Is the Chicago job your much rumoured restoration of kemper lakes?


As for the names of the dismal river courses.  My vote would be not to name them at all.  Let people call them what they want to for 5 years and see what sticks.  

[Ted Kramer]

My two kids have taken VERY far away from golf for the past few years, but I expect that to change as they get a little older.
With that being said, I'll offer the following:

One of the very best golfing experiences I've ever had was my overnight trip to Ballyneal - made possible by a very generous member of this site who I will never be able to say "thank you" to enough!!!!!. The course was simply amazing and the location/site/land/setting was spectacular. The holes we played at dusk were some of the most memorable of my life.

This thread has given me a few minutes to go back to those memories and really enjoy the thoughts.
I wish Tom and all involved nothing but the very best and I hope that this project affords many more golfers the same kind of experience I was lucky enough to have at Ballyneal.

This website is a special "place". And while I haven't been participating much lately, I still read a bunch of what is posted here and feel extremely lucky to be a part of GCA.com.

Best,
Ted

[Jud_T]

?

http://spears.golfersongolf.com/2011/03/25/medinah-picks-doak-to-renovate-course-1.aspx

[Tom_Doak]

?

http://spears.golfersongolf.com/2011/03/25/medinah-picks-doak-to-renovate-course-1.aspx

Well, yes, that's where in Chicago.  But until we submit a plan of what we want to do, and the membership approves it, we really aren't doing anything at all there, so there is not much to say about it just yet.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is the land for this second course more suited for golf than the land for the first course?

  Anthony

 

[John Kavanaugh]

  Is the land for this second course more suited for golf than the land for the first course?

  Anthony

 

Not for you.  It is the River course don't you know.  I'm just glad it is 1000 yds from the nearest window.

[Mike Hendren]

How quickly we forget the beating that Dismal River took on this very website.  Accordingly, I suggest  naming the new course The Bandwagon Course.

Bogey

[Jeff Doerr]

I'd vote for The Discovery Course at DR and The Journey Course at DR, or could be referred to as Jack's Discovery and Tom's Journey. Jack's was the first course discovered...Tom's the first to journey to the river and the whole starting in one spot and not returning.

[Rob Rigg]

Watching Chambers suffer through "bad press" on their fescue greens has been painful and I believe Ballyneal took some slack early on as well - bent seems like a safer option.

Rob,

There is nothing safer about this project.  Safer would be not to build anything at all.  So tell me, do you think Sand Hills would be a better course and or design using fescue greens?

John - I am referring to some of the problems that courses have had that seemed to stem from building fescue greens in climates where they may not or did not take too quickly. Chambers and Ballyneal come to mind - and it was probably quite painful for both courses to suffer through "bad press" or "bad ratings" because they took a chance on the greens.

Since SH have bent and the Jack course have bent then it is safe to assume that bent can be used while performing very well.

I thought the greens at SH were excellent. You had to be careful with some of the slopes because they can stimp so high but they were super pure and fun. The fescue greens at Ballyneal are "more fun" to play IMO but not as pure or fast of course. The 7th and 8th greens at BN might not work with bent?

[Peter Pallotta]

Yup, Bogie - that same thought has marred my reading of DR related threads a bit. Reminds of the scene in The Verdict, when James Mason's character (high powered lawyer) asks the frightened but honest witness: "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?!"  I asked months ago whether a few tweaks to an existing course meant it was flawed to begin with, and -- since that very thing characterizes the architectural history of, oh, 100% of the great American courses of old -- I assumed the answer was no. I'm glad to be proven right, even if a little belatedly....  

[Mike Hendren]

P2, not since Carrie was named prom queen has there been such a dramatic turn-around.  At least this saga will have a better ending.

Bogey

[Eric Smith]

The 7th and 8th greens at BN might not work with bent?

RR,

Geesh - can you imagine - being on the back of the 8th green putting back down hill to a front (or middle) pin - on bentgrass? There goes the fun, right off the green and down the slope! Ballyneal's selection of turf grasses feels just right for that particular golf course. Like you said, loads of fun to be had with those sweeping banks and slopes. And I putted so much better there this year than I did last, when I hadn't yet been exposed to that type of putting surface. I think too that my playing a few links courses, all with fescues, in between visits helped considerably in making the necessary adjustment.

I am, however, happy to know that we will have bentgrass greens on the new course. The Nicklaus course has an awesome set of greens. As good as any. If it was decided we were going to use fescues, the adjustment from one type of grass to the next wouldn't bother me so much (I imagine I'd adapt pretty easily), but who's to say others would be so receptive? I also think that in the overall scheme of things the best move is to help make our super's job as efficient as possible, now that he's going to have two golf courses to manage.

[Jim Nugent]

How quickly we forget the beating that Dismal River took on this very website. 

While true, it sounds like at least some of it was warranted: DR underwent almost immediate changes.  Since then, the course has gotten plenty of appreciation, and a fair amount of love as well.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I joined Dismal before Chris and his group became owners. I had read every word ever written on any public site before doing so.  I only had the chance to play six holes before darkness set in and I wrote the check.  If one were to go back and read each word in context as I did you would find very little of substance.  I saw through the fog and Chris and his people soon joined me.  I owe all of you a world of thanks for keeping the path clear until the time was right for what we are seeing today.

[JC Jones]

I wonder how much of the criticism came from people who actually played the course. 

[Anthony Gray]

I joined Dismal before Chris and his group became owners. I had read every word ever written on any public site before doing so.  I only had the chance to play six holes before darkness set in and I wrote the check.  If one were to go back and read each word in context as I did you would find very little of substance.  I saw through the fog and Chris and his people soon joined me.  I owe all of you a world of thanks for keeping the path clear until the time was right for what we are seeing today.

  The finest mind in golf.

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

JC - that's the problem, I'd bet almost none of it did. If it had, it would be 'opinion'; since it didn't, it was mostly 'rhetoric'.


Peter  

[Mac Plumart]

I joined Dismal before Chris and his group became owners. I had read every word ever written on any public site before doing so.  I only had the chance to play six holes before darkness set in and I wrote the check.  If one were to go back and read each word in context as I did you would find very little of substance.  I saw through the fog and Chris and his people soon joined me.  I owe all of you a world of thanks for keeping the path clear until the time was right for what we are seeing today.

  The finest mind in golf.

  Anthony

 

[Jim Nugent]

I wonder how much of the criticism came from people who actually played the course. 

Going on several-year-old memory, GCAers who played the course said they lost lots of balls, and not because they were so wild.  They said some of the greens were impossibly over the top.  Many people singled out number 13 (I think) for criticism.  This hole ended up with an entirely new design, as I recall. 

The overall impression I got was a minimalist course that followed the form without getting the substance quite right, at least in some key areas.  My other impression was that management started changing DR almost immediately, almost continuously, shortly after it opened, to make it more playable.  i.e. DR now is very different from the course that opened some years back.  Chris or others can correct me if I'm wrong.   

I also wonder if Jack might have caught some of the problem areas before DR opened, if he had spent more time there.  Very very very hard for me to believe he can get things right, if he only spends a few days on site. 

[JC Jones]

I also wonder if Jack might have caught some of the problem areas before DR opened, if he had spent more time there.  Very very very hard for me to believe he can get things right, if he only spends a few days on site. 

Dr. Mac, Donald Ross and many other classic architects spent very few if any days on site and yet somehow that isn't a criticism for them, but rather, a testament to their genius.

[Jim Nugent]

I also wonder if Jack might have caught some of the problem areas before DR opened, if he had spent more time there.  Very very very hard for me to believe he can get things right, if he only spends a few days on site. 

Dr. Mac, Donald Ross and many other classic architects spent very few if any days on site and yet somehow that isn't a criticism for them, but rather, a testament to their genius.

Ross gets plenty of criticism for the designs he apparently mailed in.  He did not do that at #2, though.  If he did it at Seminole or Oakland Hills, then more power to him.  He could pull off what almost no one else could. 

I'm pretty sure Mac spent more than a few days on his great courses.  And even if he did not take lots of time at Crystal Downs, a) he had another great architect working there after he left, and b) the course still turned out great. 

That is the bottom line.  The guys you brought up designed some of the all-time great courses in the world.  If Jack could do that, I would have nothing but praise for him.  I would toast his genius, too.  He does not, though.  So given that, and given that more time/work seems to have greatly improved DR -- again, correct me if I'm wrong about that -- it makes me wonder what he might accomplish if he did spend more than a few days. 

I'd still love to see Jack Nicklaus route and actually design a course himself.  I have almost no idea how it would turn out. 

[Richard Choi]

I got back from Dismal/Awarii/Ballynizzle trip yesterday and just saw this thread. Perfect timing!!!

I have some photos and videos of the new course as well. I will try to post them when I get some time.

Chris was a fantastic host and Dismal River was great fun. I haven't read the old posts about Dismal but I found it quite playable and it was a jolly ride over and through the dunes. Good as any Nicklaus courses that I have played. The par 3's were particularly impressive and par 5's were very strong as well.

Riding the ranger through the new course was amazing. I could not believe that they had not moved a single spoonful of dirt and all they did was to cut native grasses. It looked like I could play the course right now (and I would have if they let me )! It really is remarkable how close to the finished product the course looked as it stands today. The land is THAT good!

Funny that Tom compared the new course to Rock Creek as my first impression was that the new course reminded me of the pictures of Rock Creek that I have seen.

Dismal is certainly worth the trip if you are in the SH area and it will be doubly so when the new course is finished.

P.S. I walked the front nine at Dismal and I thought the course was very walkable (once they start cutting the walking path). The distance between the green to tee was not too bad. Hopefully, after the new course is built and walking is more encouraged, you will see more and more people walking both courses.