What does a new course built in 21st century Scotland have to....

[Sean_A]

Chappers

I just went to the website of Dundonald, not a very good one mind you, but they do mention membership of the club without any mention of having to be a member of Loch Lomond.  Unless things have changed recently, Glasgow Gailes is the second course of Glasgow GC and does not have separate full rights membership.   

For a first time visitor, the Gailes package looks a good deal @ £180 for a game each at Western, Glasgow and Dundonald. 

Whitty

We haven't had that many new openings in the Midlands during the 2000s.  I think after the glut of the 80s/early 90s that things tailed off considerably on the new build front, but there are a ton of private/proprietor courses which visitors can play for £30 or less.  Not many are much good.  Anything with a hint of a good reputation tends to start around £40ish.  Its pretty darn expensive for most of these courses if you ask me and generally can't touch literally tons of public in the States for quality at the same price point (its at the high end where GB&I kick US ass in being good value).  Where these courses enjoy a huge benefit is in their day and society rates, plus for the regular joe many are virtually empty during a lot of weekdays.  Often times paying extra for the empty course is worth it if like me you have bad memories of stupidly long games at US publics.   

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

I said in my reply #9

It’s no dream it’s a normal Scottish golfing club with its members coming together to produce the traditional Scottish golf course for its members and yes they would like additional revenue to make further improvements, just like the history of our club scene.

David T said in his reply#22

"Don't even some of the old Scottish greats significantly benefit from the tourist trade? Would they be able to provide the locals the same quality at the same price without the tourist trade?"

DMoriarty raise an interest and very valid point. The notion that Scottish golf is defined exclusively by local clubs serving local communities is wrong. The golden age of railway travel in Britain introduced golf resorts (built by developers for profit no less!) and golf tourism to Scotland almost 100 years ago. Turnberry, Gleneagles and Cruden Bay were not built by local members. They were built by businesses to generate revenue. Countless "golf hotels" were built across Scotland 60, 80 or 100 years ago to so the same.

The Scots invented golf tourism. Resort golf is a Scottish as stick toffee pudding! 

Actually the whole point of the Scottish Club scene is that the vast majority of clubs favoured club membership, nevertheless many of you on this site benefit from their policy of being open to visitors. This is to help generate more funds. The railways opened the visitors market while opening a FEW of their own courses in the process, yet the heart of the Scottish game in based firmly in the club scene. Askernish proves the point that its existence is clearly down to local members who have an open door policy. Again to prove the point the majority of the public owned courses had their share of private clubs using that single course, in some cases more than just a couple of private clubs.

The game expanded in Scotland via our club scene not through the odd resort, which for the most part came late upon this period.

AS for David M comment, just look to the financial reports on the local clubs, due to new members the clubs was able to develop its course, or buy new land for expansion to 18 Holes, or build its own club house. Credit is down to a strong club membership with limits placed upon Membership numbers even though they were open for visitors the strength of the clubs were and still based upon its membership.

We never seem to learn, we need to be thinking in their time period when we talk about this period and not our own. Values were different back then, yes they allowed visitor to their clubs but the Scottish Game was based around its club scene. Perhaps some have not experience the warm hospitality the Scots give to visitors and golfers alike. Christ, we even let you buy our Single Malt, now that my friends is certainly one of the most generous gestures you will ever come across.

Melvyn

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean it is possible to become a Glasgow Gailes standalone member and all applicants to Glasgow Golf Club have to be Gailes members for a period until their full membership is accepted.

Dundonald obviously has a membership but I wouldn't  bet on the clubhouse being built for a good few years.

Adrian is clearly a talented businessman who has identified where it is possible to make money even in difficult times. He should be held in great esteem on this site. The last high end course to be built in my (reasonably affluent) area only around 15 years ago at a cost of many millions (£10+) is now a field.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Adrian is clearly a talented businessman who has identified where it is possible to make money even in difficult times. He should be held in great esteem on this site.

Never a truer word spoken...

In my view, Adrian is possibly the most valuable contributor on this entire site because he deals in the realities for 95% of practising GCA's...

[Matt Harrison]

Very interesting discussion, especially since I just got back from Scotland and Machrihanish.  Just a couple thoughts:

-One of the things that makes it very difficult to build a new course in Scotland that fits with or feels like a place like Gullane or Dornoch is that the places we love in Scotland, most, but not all, flow right out of town.  I can't imagine there is a whole lot of great linksland left with that type of proximity to a real community that a typical club needs to thrive without a lot of visitors. 

-Machrihanish Dunes is a pretty cool place, and I wondered why there has not been much discussion on here, other than the fact that not many folks get there.  It does appear that the restrictions made it pretty difficult to build the course and to maintain it.  However, it was really fun to play with a few really, really good holes.

[Simon Holt]

Simon - who owns the NB links? If it is the NBGC or the collective clubs then they are clearly not acting in the best interest of their
members.

Apologies Mark, somehow I missed this post last night.  NBGC manages the links but it is owned by the council I believe (please dont quote me on that!) I know for a fact the Marine hotel tried to buy it (well, their parent compnay Forte at the time) back in the 80s or early 90s.  They would have made the current 17th the 1st and the current 16th the 18th to start and finish in front of the hotel.

That is where it becomes cloudy.  I will ask my parents next door neighbour who is the local golf historian.

[Simon Holt]

Tom D,

EXACTLY.  It would in the perfect world be fit for purpose but the majority of known locations are off limits due to red tape.  We both know the headaches we have had by trying to do things diplomatically here at RC and we still worry that someone will pull the rug out.

This is why I find it unfair and slightly disrepectful when people are overly critical to some of the modern developments.  The hoops one has to jump throughto get anything done here are substantial.  Which is good to protect our landscape but from a golfing business point of view, why bother seeking it out if you can do it right now on land that is not quite as good but will still give you a great product to market?  Unless you have deep pockets the latter will rule the former and you wont wait.

Unquestionably the land HCEG own between Muirfield, The Renaissance Club and the Firth is outstanding.  Lets hope our few holes give a small taste of what an amazing course a full 18 down there would be.

Matt H,


Are you saying we need to build a new town to house a golf course!!!!  I agree that is one of the delights of golf here. The communities the clubs serve.

[Michael Whitaker]

It seems that all of the high profile courses being built in the UK are on or near the ocean where permitting problems severely limit what can be done... especially compared to the old classics. Are new inland courses being built like the old classics? Where are the new courses in the style of Walton Heath, Huntercombe, Swinley Forest, Alwoodley, Beau Desert, etc , etc, etc?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Simon

There are many sites near or adjacent to towns and communities that once were golf courses. Admittedly more inland than links or coastal but still enough links to go around. The problem being very few are interested in history so have not bothered to check out these sites. There are certainly enough to go around for a few years.

Not certain I have a point, then read Marks new post IMO Revised British NLEs. While many have been converted in to housing estates enough are there to reinvent into new courses.

I am not in the industry but know that many could be reinstated as golf courses again but are there investors around who want to plough their money into local community golf clubs/courses – no I think not, the idea behind new courses is seeking Championship rating to try and make serious money. So please do not tell me there are no sites fit for purpose, the problem is that these sites do not fulfil the financial needs of investors and that has sweet FA to do with golf. Nevertheless I suppose these courses could be sustained by many locals if interested and motivated was aroused by getting a name golfer/architect to design their new course. Again this is not viable because the locals could not afford the Fees to pay the Golf Designer so no point of interest applies to bring in others players and/or visitors. Simple ‘Catch 22’ position, no interest in the little club/course as not designed by a well-known designer, no interest from the locals or potential visitors re a course designed by an unknown.

Yet the sites are still out there. Having seen what can be done to the ground that is today the site of the Castle Course, I see no reason apart from interest as to why many of these old sites have not been utilised. I also suspect that there is no money in these local sites or communities so they are quickly overlooked as not Championship material.

How good is any site, well that means in today’s golfing language how much money can we make as that will depend upon how much money we are going to spend on the course.

Melvyn

[Adrian_Stiff]

Michael - Soil conditions often dictate what you can do and what you cant do. Those great inland courses you mention are on similar soils, the surrey heathlands, there are some nice pockets of sandy stuff around Leeds and Bournemouth and North of Birmingham. The problem with heathland now is that any left is almost certainly protected and getting golf permission is very difficult. Getting permission for golf courses is fairly easy provide the land falls into 3rd grade of worse (top grades are great for farming). Re-creating heathland is tough although you could easily get near to creating the right golf conditions, if you had a landfill site, and capped thinly with a sand soil rootzone, perhaps at 2 inches, gorse and broom are fairly easy to establish from seed,  tall fescue grasses too, I have not had much success with heather but perhaps I am doing something wrong.

[Kris Shreiner]

Simon,

A course like Brora nails it all in spades. The cost of the land and availibilty of the right parcel is where it can get difficult. But if you want: a jolly, solid test that could be built and maintained economically at under 6,500 yds, command a decent but not extortionate green fee, provide a modest, warm and comfy clubhouse with nice food and drink...Brora is it!

The juniors and fossils can swarm it and it moves along well, the chop doesn't get thrashed and with a wee bit of wind, the lower handicapper won't rip it apart.

I've not played Common Ground in the States, and the land there does not appear to have the undulations, movement or quite the quality of Brora, yet Tom's team coaxed a fine, affordable layout from it within a economical budget. The Colorado Golf Association didn't have to pay for the land to my knowledge, which makes for an easier proposition when constructing and then keeping costs affordable across the board.
 
Communities in Scotland often have common ground they can utilize for public projects like golf, but generally some private land needs to be acquired to get the parcel size one needs to build a course on quality ground. There also is the not so small matter of the fees an architect and his team need to lend their expertise to getting it right and on budget. Few of Tom's caliber would be able to do a project for a small fee, though in these times I'd imagine a project with smaller remuneration is better than not having one at all!

I believe there is great opportunity, worldwide, for revitalization of urban and neglected courses. If they could be built in the 30's, they sure as hell could be restored in the 2,000's. Golf, particularly the administrative bodies, should take a step back and re-assess the real mission...putting the health and accessibility of the game first, for ALL that could afford to play. That goal, instead of lusting after the next corporate partners to sponsor the moneyspinners lining the executive leadership's pockets and focusing with such fervor on conducting various championships for the 1% that compete...would help the game gain much-needed vitality and healthy, sustainable growth.

Common Ground also has a fledging caddie program that has done quite well in it's early stages. This, of course, is impossible to achieve at a municipal or non-high end facility...just ask the NGF, PGA and Club Car crowd, as well as many other misguided folks that frequent this site and can't imagine that a caddie could add to their experience or not drive the facility to financial ruin due to the "golden goose" that is cart revenue. Please.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kris - You are missing some important parts of the jigsaw. Getting a golf course in good shape from new takes time, money can accelerate that process, go build a 1930s with a couple of men and mowers and the course will be hogshit for many years. The reality is that the quirky courses we love on here struggle to get enough play, the masses dont buy. The masses want "championship" somewhere on the label, they want to think they play a 7000 yard course (reality its 5800). The average joe wants good greens, he aint so worried about the architecture.

[Melvyn Morrow]

That is one of the biggest problems we have in golf today, this concept that there should be two types of courses, Championship for the elite and the normal for the 99% of ordinary golfers.

I have never been keen to label a course championship as I believe all courses offer different incentives to golfers.  By all means have Pro Tees or Tournament Tees but like TOC they should be open to all for everyday use.

Some of the best and most enjoyable courses are never considered for The Open any more, not due to the playability of the course but it’s all down to making money. Now that is fair and reasonable but not at the cost of bypassing good golf course in the pursuit of the £ or $. Yet this is what the game has now descended into. Let’s not forget that a Champion has to conquer the course as well as the other players.

Championship courses are the curse of the modern game. Add this to the other aids that blunt the golfers game and hence his senses, really questions if we are indeed getting a true competition or is it really just for the cameras. If we can view it by being there or on the TV screen, great, but for me the most important part of the Championship is that we are testing the players to produce THE BEST and on the day the most deserving. Only a course can sort the golfers from the players. Yes, I want Prestwick back as a venue for The Open, it would allow a great competition among the top golfers of the day.

We play Tournaments and have Championship on our Golf Courses, so we should not need to build Championship courses unless you are indeed seeking to pamper the elite and encourage more super private courses purely because the Members have the money and can afford it. The modern game of golf is and should be open to all.

Melvyn

[Gary Slatter]

the Torrance is working towards being a success.  Rates from 25 to 95 pounds.  The young Scot near the lead at Castle Stuart (Whiteside) prefers the Torrance "because of the greens and their surrounds".  Unlike most pros, he makes times for his fourball, and pays for them (taking advantage of the 99pound fourball rate).
Craigielaw is also very popular.