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Carl Rogers

Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 02:01:14 PM »
Bruce & Adrian,
Perhaps you have identified the one of golf divides.  Other divides are time, $ and what the significant others can tolerate.

To the rest of you, the conditions at Bandon are tough on the over 55 age group.  It is tough to study the course in hard conditions, keep up with the pace of play and try, within one's ability, to shoot a reasonable score.  One can appreciate while acknowledging one's limitations.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 02:03:22 PM by Carl Rogers »
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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 02:03:37 PM »
Carl: I am well over 55 and walked 36 a day with a caddy - I think it depends on the individual as I most times walk and carry my bag when I play my home course.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2011, 02:12:30 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on July 06, 2011, 02:03:37 PM
Carl: I am well over 55 and walked 36 a day with a caddy - I think it depends on the individual as I most times walk and carry my bag when I play my home course.

+1
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Carl Rogers

Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2011, 02:36:26 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on July 06, 2011, 02:12:30 PM
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on July 06, 2011, 02:03:37 PM
Carl: I am well over 55 and walked 36 a day with a caddy - I think it depends on the individual as I most times walk and carry my bag when I play my home course.
+1
I apologize for getting off topic, but I have to respond ...
I have been to Bandon last February, walked and carried for 36, 3 days in a row ... and it was too much, particulary BT in the afternoon round.  I will be 58 in December.  I grew up in West Tennessee and played in that summer heat.  I now live in SE Virginia and will carry in 90+ temps on a course that has long green to tee walks. 

I believe I pass the 'wimp' test.

I have no clue what is the typical first time experience at Bandon, but I do not see my experience being in a tiny minority that go there.
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JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2011, 02:57:17 PM »
Carl and Jerry,the people who are ALREADY at Bandon shouldn't be part of the discussion.They knew going in that it's walking only.I don't even think you could consider a Bandon visitor an average golfer.

Wouldn't the better question be "does OM intrigue the average golfer enough to go visit"?

Carl,walking in West Tennessee summer heat definitely passes the wimp test.Unfortunately,it fails the IQ test.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2011, 03:58:56 PM »
Quote from: Carl Rogers on July 06, 2011, 02:01:14 PM
...
To the rest of you, the conditions at Bandon are tough on the over 55 age group.  It is tough to study the course in hard conditions, keep up with the pace of play and try, within one's ability, to shoot a reasonable score.  One can appreciate while acknowledging one's limitations.



"I have been to Bandon last February, walked and carried for 36, 3 days in a row ... and it was too much, particulary BT in the afternoon round."

Carl, your first message gave no indication of what you meant. The discussion here is the average golfer. We took it in that context. The average golfers I played with at Bandon had no intention of playing more than 18 holes a day. While many of we wackos can and do walk 36 a day. We are not average.

Although, I have to wonder about your pace of play comment. I was quite dismayed at the pace the average golfer wants to keep there. I.e., SLOW.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2011, 04:02:27 PM »
Bandon may work with the walk policy but would it work better with limited carts allowed on the fairway. If you are thinking on a trip with 12 guys, and one or two want a cart, if its a no cart policy you lose the 12.

All this makes zero difference if all 4 courses are nicely filled.
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2011, 04:05:07 PM »
Quote from: Adrian_Stiff on July 06, 2011, 04:02:27 PM


All this makes zero difference if all 4 courses are nicely filled.

this...just got off the phone with them..Number of rooms available one month out?  ZERO
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Steve Goodwin

Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2011, 05:52:41 PM »
Let's not forget that some golfers get to Bandon and have a links epiphany.   The ball does funny things in the wind and on the ground and they like it.  They get a huge kick out of it.  They start thinking this game is a whole lot more interesting than the one they're use to, the one with carts and overwatered greens etc.   They plan trips to the UK.   They've seen the light, but enlightment comes with a price, since there's probably no links course within 1000 miles of where they live. 
Just speaking as one who had that kind of links moment aeons ago.   
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Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2011, 07:29:06 PM »
What is great about Bandon is that it is not soft greens, palm trees and waterfalls as there are plenty of golf courses offering that style. Fortunately, there are enough golfers who do appreciate links golf and will make the trek to walk the courses at Bandon Dunes.

I wonder if they would add cart paths and carts if there were not enough golfers to support the resort. Would carts and a beverage cart increase the appreciation and interest of links golf? I sure hope not.

Chambers Bay took a big gamble that there were enough golfers in a metro area to appreciate and play a walking-only links course. It has done all it could to get the course exposure and fame, but I am unsure why it is not as popular as Bandon. Is it booked all summer like Bandon?

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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2011, 10:13:01 PM »
"Average" golfers don't go to Bandon and probably have not even heard of the place. Bandon is for SERIOUS golfers. I'll define that as 50+ rounds per year. So maybe Jerry should re-phrase the question to this: "Does the average SERIOUS golfer appreciate OM.

I'd say that only a small percentage of serious US golfers appreciate it now, but the potential is there. For US parkland players, links golf is an acquired taste that takes time, patience, humility and a willingness to forget about the scorecard. Once those are in place, the average serious golfer will fall in love with OM.
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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2011, 10:42:13 PM »
I really don't think the golfers who are serious will necessarily like Bandon - it is an acquired taste.  I wouldn't say that a guy who only likes parkland courses is automatically not a serious golfer - there are dozens of great parkland courses including those which have hosted major championships and a golfer who loves them but is not interested in Bandon can certainly still be a serious golfer. 

The question is whether the serious golfer can appreciate Bandon even if he has no interest in playing there or do you have to have a particular love of links type courses in order to appreciate Bandon? I don't know if that is a distinction without a difference.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2011, 10:53:16 PM »
This whole thread is so speculative it's ridiculous.

How many people know someone who went to Bandon Dunes and didn't like it?  I'm sure there are bound to be some.  But, what's the percentage of people who didn't like it out of the people you know?
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Andy Troeger

Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2011, 10:57:34 PM »
I actually think that Old MacDonald is still pretty different from the other three courses at the resort. In fact, perhaps the best thing about the resort is the variety from each course to the others, given the overall high quality of each course and their proximity.  My guess is that Old MacDonald is probably the most links-like of the bunch--I think it would probably be the most "different" for most American golfers that have not been overseas. Being in that group, it certainly was the most different for me.

I don't agree with the premise that golfers won't like it because of getting beat up. While some certainly will score poorly, I don't think the course is especially hard and certainly isn't as tough as some of the great resort courses in the US. The frustration might be that it looks relatively easy given its width and huge greens, but those greens will exact more strokes than expected, especially the first time around.

I don't think the resort or Old MacDonald specifically is a course that every golfer would like or will want to visit. My guess, however, is that most of those that aren't inclined to like it also won't be inclined to visit given the effort required to get there, the cost, the walking, and the weather. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as it leaves more tee times available for those that want to get there and get back!
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Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2011, 11:52:30 PM »
Do people who consider themselves below average spend any time thinking about what average people do?
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2011, 12:50:22 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on July 06, 2011, 10:42:13 PM
I really don't think the golfers who are serious will necessarily like Bandon - it is an acquired taste.  I wouldn't say that a guy who only likes parkland courses is automatically not a serious golfer - there are dozens of great parkland courses including those which have hosted major championships and a golfer who loves them but is not interested in Bandon can certainly still be a serious golfer. 

The question is whether the serious golfer can appreciate Bandon even if he has no interest in playing there or do you have to have a particular love of links type courses in order to appreciate Bandon? I don't know if that is a distinction without a difference.

It would seem to me that if you took the time,money, and effort to get to bandon, and didn't like it...(the courses)
you're not a serious golfer.
What's not to like for a golfer?

How could anyone appreciate bandon and have no interest in playing there?
Is the opposite of that not appreciating Doral but being interested in playing there?
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William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2011, 02:17:40 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 06, 2011, 10:53:16 PM
This whole thread is so speculative it's ridiculous.

How many people know someone who went to Bandon Dunes and didn't like it?  I'm sure there are bound to be some.  But, what's the percentage of people who didn't like it out of the people you know?

Tom,

I know 2 people who have said they did not like the style of golf at Bnadon, preferring soil based/parkland courses where they could really dig divots, etc...

Those 2 have both returned to Bandon several times.

I also know an 3rd friend of mine who after hitting into his 14th bunker of the day @ Trails said "I'm coming back to Bandon, but I'm never playing Trails again!", ROTFLOL!

All 3 are average golfers...

Thanks
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2011, 04:13:15 AM »
I have heard many folks say they like links for a few games a year, but prefer inland golf for the majority of the time because of wind.  In fact, as I grow older I too would probably prefer inland golf if it were the right courses.  I think M Keiser is very wise to let the design of the course deal with the wind rather than the marketing doing so

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 04:20:23 AM by Sean Arble »
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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2011, 08:11:26 AM »
Tom: My point of this thread came about from watching the APL and asking some guys at my course if they watched it and what they thought - a few did watch it and they just didn't appreciate the fact that the architecture was the reason why the event could be played in those conditions.  Going to Bandon is an entirely different issue - I would say that it is a reasonable assumption that nearly everyone who goes to Bandon knows a great deal about it before they go so they are almost universally going to like it.
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Bruce Katona

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Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2011, 09:07:04 AM »
Jerry: While I volunteer for that difficult recruiting duty, there are a few above me in the management food chain that envoke seniority for that particular task.

Someone has to take one for the team and do the dirty deed !
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2011, 09:33:05 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on July 07, 2011, 08:11:26 AM
Going to Bandon is an entirely different issue - I would say that it is a reasonable assumption that nearly everyone who goes to Bandon knows a great deal about it before they go so they are almost universally going to like it.

Jerry,

I'm not sure about that.  I typically plan our annual trip.  We had 8 "average" guys go to Bandon and I was the only one who knew much about the place.   They all loved it, one of whom recently told me Pac Dunes was his favorite course on the planet.  This year we have a larger group going, 10 of whom are Bandon virgins.  I'm willing to wager that to a man they will sing it's praises...
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2011, 09:46:51 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 06, 2011, 10:53:16 PM
This whole thread is so speculative it's ridiculous.

The same thing might have been said to Mike Keiser, about Bandon Dunes -- and likely was.

Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 06, 2011, 10:53:16 PM
[W]hat's the percentage of people who didn't like it out of the people you know?

Zero.
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Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2011, 10:32:28 AM »
Jud: Bandon is a pretty expensive trip and I am really surprised that the guys didn't do some research on the place before they went - they must have a whole lot of faith in your judgment. 
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2011, 10:37:04 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on July 07, 2011, 10:32:28 AM
Jud: Bandon is a pretty expensive trip and I am really surprised that the guys didn't do some research on the place before they went - they must have a whole lot of faith in your judgment. 

I'm guessing Jud sold it more along the lines of....

A week away from everything in a isolated spot.  No wife, no kids, no job, no nothing...just the boys playing golf, shooting the shit, playing some cards, having a few drinks...the good life.

Its a brilliant move that Bandon isn't a resort so the wives won't be tempted to come along.   ;)
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Phil Benedict

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Re: Does the average golfer appreciate Old Macdonald?
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2011, 10:39:15 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 06, 2011, 10:53:16 PM
This whole thread is so speculative it's ridiculous.

How many people know someone who went to Bandon Dunes and didn't like it?  I'm sure there are bound to be some.  But, what's the percentage of people who didn't like it out of the people you know?

I don't know anyone who didn't like Bandon but some have preferred Whistling Straits or even Pinehurst.

On the other hand I've met plenty of people who were not impressed by TOC and NGLA.
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