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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pebble...
« on: May 07, 2003, 10:26:40 PM »
I was sitting with a group of friends this afternoon and the topic of Pebble Beach came up.  The consensus was that it was the greatest course in the United States.

I disagreed, although I confessed that I wasn't certain what was the greatest course.  (Augusta National.)  I told them that I had just returned from playing the course this Spring and I wasn't as awestruck.  At that point, everyone (it seemed) was vehemently disagreeing with me.  I got a lot of "everyone agrees" and the "tour players say" and what have you.  What I never got was a definitive answer about why it was so great.

I made one confession during the argument: While I didn't think it was the greatest course I'd ever played, I DID think it had three or four of my favorite holes that I'd ever played.  I loved the grandiose views and the wind.

One of the things that spoiled it for me was the sheer number of people on the course.  I don't just mean golfers.  There were maintenance people scooting all over the course (with absolutely no regard for the golfers).  The area around the pro shop read more like Disneyworld to me than a golf course.  It was a glorified retail outlet.  I didn't care for it.

I was disappointed in the size and movement of the green complexes too.  However, I may be extremely biased because the previous rounds were played at Pasatiempo.  Nevertheless, there wasn't a lot of diversity of shots to be played around the greens.

Well, that was a lot of bitching.  But, you know what?  I still had a great time.  It was still a genuinely enjoyable experience.  One of the best.  I just didn't think it was the greatest ever.

Should I surrender my GCA card now?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brianhaum

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2003, 02:57:05 AM »
Carlyle...The reason a top ranked property like Pebble Beach is one of your favourites is BECAUSE there are golf course workers scooting around all over the course! There is no excuse for lack of etiquette with regards to the golfer, but from this side of the "shovel" it is difficult to accomplish what has to be done with streams of golfers pouring over the course. If I had to wait and pause everytime "play" was around me my Cushman might as well be my bed. I am not disgruntled with your comments, just adding a voice for our side. Thanks. Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2003, 04:50:09 AM »
Carlyle,

Hallelujah!  I couldn't agree more.  

Pebble Beach is a good course with a couple great holes.  If it weren't for 7,8,9,10 & 18 the course would be blah, IMHO.  I have also always stated that if you took Pebble and put it in the middle of Nebraska it wouldn't even be a top 100 course on any list.  Pebble Beach leans on its location more than any other "great course".

As for your friends comments, well just let them know that just because a course and its amenities are "ritzy", that doesn't make it the greatest course in America.  The only reason I could ever say that Pebble IS the greatest would be because it's one place you can take your wife on a "golf" vacation and she will love you for it.  Shinnecock Hills is my favorite course in the U.S. that I have played.

So, if golf is about Five Star hotels and spas, neat bars like the Tap Room, a few holes on the ocean, and 6 hour rounds then Pebble Beach is the place for you.

I do like Pebble Beach and would play there if given the opportunity.  It is a "good" golf course with some amazing views and a couple "great" holes.  But, if you were to offer me St. Andrews in snow flurries or Pebble Beach in perfect weather, I would take St. Andrews EVERY time.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

THuckaby2

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2003, 06:05:11 AM »
Carlyle - we've had this argument about 20 times already in this group - no hassles, you couldn't possibly know that - just rest assured that you are not alone in your anti-Pebble sentiment - one of the most vociferous comrades you have in this has already chimed in (Jeff F.).

Rest assured the arguments PRO-Pebble are equally strong.  I just don't have the energy to do this AGAIN.  

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2003, 06:12:39 AM »
Carlyle,

I don't disagree with your general sentiment, but I think the green complexes at Pebble are fabulous.  I love their smallish size and severe slopes.  I suspect they keep the poa relatively thick for the heavy play.  I can't imagine putting on those greens if they're tournament slick.  

What if Pebble went private and CPC went public?  Would that change their respective reputations?

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

ForkaB

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2003, 06:13:46 AM »
shivas

I think that 4 is world class as is the green at 15.  If only the latter had four strategically placed pot bunkers in the fairway.....

Somebody asked me this weekend why I thought Pebble was great, and here is what (I think) I said:

--fairways that look wide but play narrow
--small greens which demand accuracy on the approach
--deceptive length (the longest 6800 yard course in the world)
--greens which are both subtle and amazingly fast
--some holes that are so good nobody has ever been able to (or had the balls to try to) replicate them--4, 8, 11, 17
--the scenery is nice

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2003, 06:19:08 AM »
There is NO excuse for the blatant disregard of golfers by the maintenance crew. At HMB Ocean, my crew was instructed to stop everything for golfers hitting shots. They were trained to know when it was acceptable to pass, and when quiet was required. If the work can't be done without disrupting play, a different strategy is needed. A golf course is maintained so golfers can PLAY golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"chief sherpa"

THuckaby2

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2003, 06:26:37 AM »

Quote
the green is larger than it should be for a wedge shot, and it doesn't slope enough to make up for it.  I think 3 is a far better hole.    

I rarely disagree with my oft-partner, but you're losing it on this one, shivas.  4 Green is tiny and is sloped to bejeesus from back to front.  Damn nicely bunkered also...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2003, 06:44:34 AM »
Did you watch any of the USOpens there, shivas?  Lots of bogeys and worse on a tiny hole... Yes, that was due to lots of wind and a VERY slick green, but still, I'm guessing your group caught the greens particularly soft and slow.  It's never going to be a killer golf hole, but it's not the easy birdie the yardage would suggest, primarily BECAUSE the green so so small and so severely sloped!

I find the tee shot to be interesting, also... just how far does one want to push that... I know a certain chicagoan who just might be able to drive that green the way things are today... or get it in the front bunker anyway... temptation?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2003, 06:51:25 AM »
Huckster's got it nailed, this time, shivas.

It's a par 3 1/2.  Your group had 2 half-pars and one half-double bogey.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2003, 06:52:01 AM »
It is funny how the maintenance practices at Pebble et all have made the golf experience worse there. I remember when almost all the work was done on the course by 9AM. that was pre Palmer and Eastwood et al.They worked well before dawn and started mowing ahead of the first group and were off 18 by 8:30 or 9. I do find holes like 4,8,9,11,13,14,16,17 to be amoung the best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2003, 06:56:30 AM »
The cool thing about the 4th green is how close it is to a very sheer cliff. During the '92 Open I watched alot of golfers refuse to take the ball out over the water so the wind would bring it back to the green. Time after time the players aimed at the green and then tried to get up and down from left of the green. I was told that balls taken out over the cliff would not be blown back on the green due to some sort of wind sheer. Could this be true? Any hanggliders or parasailers out there that can confirm this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2003, 06:58:17 AM »
All I know is I am completely fried, billed 300 hours in April, looking at the same pace for the next week or so, and all I can think about it going back to Pebble (the Fortsonator is right - I'll book spa days for the girlfriend at the same time).  Not Kiawah or Pinehurst or anywhere else really.  It's not ONLY the course, but the course has a lot to do with it.  For those of us who don't see a lot of classic architecture, the tiny greens and the way a bunch of fairways lay on the land (nobody leveled 9 or 10 so they would look normal or play easier for resort golfers), it's a stunning experience, despite some of the less than great holes.  I was so drained after playing last time, I did not want to play it again.  And we played in 4:30.

Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
That was one hellacious beaver.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2003, 07:24:46 AM »
I hear the raves of various contributors to this forum about the subtleties of various green complexes at their favorites, Pasa, Pinehurst etc., and am wondering what they are missing at #4. I think I have played the course more than most here, and feel that under tournament conditions or in inclement weather, the green is diabolical.

Just my 2 cents.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2003, 07:25:54 AM »
Jeff,

For crying out loud, man, get off this web-site and get back to work.  I figure your posts are costing you at $75 bucks a pop!  Balance, Jeff, balance.

I agree with your comments about the greens and lay of the land at Pebble.  While many would like to see the artificial dunes restored, I think the bunkering at Pebble is highly underrated.  I love the bunker scheme on the second hole and could stare at the bunkers surrounding the fourth green for hours.  I was also enamoured with the foozle bunker at the 12th.  

I think the 14th hole is the most underrated par five in America.  It places a premium on the exact distance of the second shot to leave a full pitch for the professionals, who are not assured of a par until their third shot comes to rest.  

This might be blasphemous, but I think the 18th is the most overrated par five in America.  This hole is extremely difficult for my slade (something between a slice and a fade) but a piece of cake for the professionals.  It is a very good hole, but much prettier from the air than the ground.  Using Sargeant Shank's "middle of Nebraska" theory, the 18th would fare poorly, while I believe the 14th would remain world class.  

IMHO, nos. 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16 & 17 would stand out in any environment.  Jack's new 5th hole shows modest restraint, but it could easily fit in one of his Bear Trace courses in my home state.  I love the quirkiness of the 6th, but it is no better than Marathon, the 5th at Lower Cascades, which also requires a blind second over a steep rise.  

Borrowing from both Huckster and Dieter:  "There - I am insane now."

Regards,

Mike

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2003, 07:28:50 AM »
redanman:

I feel all warm and fuzzy this morning just because you're admitting Pebble is world class.  The old redanman used the word "sucks."   ;)  It is a great course.  How great?  We could argue that forever.

shivas:  to each his own, my friend.  I obviously find more to like there than you do.  I've also just never found that hole to be easy, not even close... and I have seen a variety of conditions.  It is one devilish green, also... no matter how it is... softer is going to make it easier a little, but it's always gonna have evil tendencies.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2003, 07:30:36 AM »
Interesting that Mr. Huntley and I crossed in cyberspace, and we both seem to give satanic characteristics to this green...  of course "diabolical" describes it best!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2003, 07:41:43 AM »
Interesting how the non-archie buffs were so passionate about their opinion.

I suppose if you play Pebble for the first time and are not swept away by the beauty or hypnotized by the oceans rythms, you might be a mutant.

I think Pebble is great for reasons that are more subtle than 18 great golf holes. But if one wants to score well under any condition,  be it weather or tournament like pressure, the slightest mis-hit requires the perfect recovery.

Most golfers get swept up in the mind altering experience and could care less what they shoot. Which imho is a good thing. Just wish they'd practice that apathy at their closer to home courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2003, 07:45:46 AM »
I have always gotten the feeling...and I know that I'm right...that many of the "regulars" on this site would rate Pebble higher if it were private....Its seems the very act of it serving the public causes many of our peoples concerns...does this attitude prove we are a bunch of elitest snobs who think those that don't "get it" should not play it..at least not when we are on site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2003, 07:58:40 AM »
Carlyle:

Shivas has hit the nail on the head again.  His description of Pebble says it all.

The reason your friends think it is so great (Believe me I like and like it a lot but there are better courses) is probably the absolute beauty of the Monterey Peninsula and the amazing setting that is Pebble.

Having had a chance to play there again this past March, about the 15th time I have played there, my opinion would echo Shivas.

It also is about a 6 hour round (5hrs and 45 minutes) so there is lot's of time to be distracted by the beauty of the area and not much time to really play the course.  The waiting between shots is awful.  But hey at $20 a hole what Marshall is going to cause any real problems with slow players.

The best in the US.  I don't think so.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2003, 08:01:58 AM »
I've played Pebble maybe a dozen times most of them with guests visiting and starting at at $25 (1976).  The last time I played it was $175 so that was quite a while ago.  I was there about a month ago but walked parts of the course and did not play. PB is certainly world class but not among my top echelon courses that include Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, National Golf Links, Cypress Point next door and even Royal Portrush which I think has more truly great holes.

That said, I defy anyone to add up their putts at the end of a round and then tell me how the greens arenn't that difficult.  They are small with lots of slope and the short putts inside 10 feet are somehow missed at Pebble more then about any other place I can recall.

I think #16 is a terribly underappreciated hole.  I really like the tee shot decisions and the approach is wonderful. As I said in another thread, I think #12 is an awful par 3.

BTW- brianhaum- there is no excuse ever for interrupting players on the course.  The conditions you are working so hard to acheive are FOR THE GOLFERS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2003, 08:21:10 AM »
I just returned from my first rounds at Pebble, so I'll weigh in here.

I loved Pebble Beach. Loved it. I also played Pasatiempo, which I admired and enjoyed greatly; and Spyglass, which I found to be a strong golf course with fantastic ocean views, but for which I felt no particular love.

Why did I love Pebble? Because the acknowledged great holes were everything I hoped they'd be, and several of the holes you don't hear much about were better than I expected.

I'll grant the criticism of #2 (temp green, as well, but still, I made two easy pars there) and #15 (defenseless, if it weren't for the rough). Otherwise, it's easily the best course I've played -- including TOC.

Of the non-great holes, I was particularly impressed by #4 and #13.

Looking down the fairway on #4, at least five clubs come to mind for a tee-shot: a driver, a three-wood, a five-wood, or either of your two longest irons. It depends on the wind and how accurate you're feeling; the hole plays more uphill than you realize from TV, and the bunkers pinch in closer as you near the green. I hit a perfect 2-iron the first day, but with a little wind into my face the second day, I slightly mishit the 2-iron and put my drive into the cross bunker that guards the fairway. There's nothing to do but pitch out from there.

#13 is also more uphill than I realized, and presents similar problems off the tee -- that J-shaped bunker guarding the left side of the fairway and the bunkers up the right side. The approach shot is probably two extra clubs because of the elevation.

I agree with Mike Hendren about #14 -- much tougher than I imagined it would be. I nutted a drive down the left side the second day and hit a solid 3-wood second, and still had 155 uphill, into a slight wind, to try to reach that little table-top left side over the huge bunker. I didn't take enough club, with predictable results.

As for #18, the pros may eat it up, but I don't think there's a tougher drive on the course. I played it both days with a crosswind coming off the ocean, meaning the ideal shot is a draw, but a hook will get you wet, and failure to pull off the draw will leave you in the fairway bunker on the right, or worse.

As for the mainenance issues, I wasn't bothered at all by the crews out on the course. I'm used to playing my golf in the early morning and waiting for the guys on the mowers at my home course, who couldn't be less concerned about how long you have to wait for them. That wasn't my experience at Pebble. In fact, as we played #11 the first day, an army of grounds crew guys stood and waited for us to hit our approach shots, then marched across the fairway two-by-two towards the 10th hole (kind of reminded me of the opening to that old TV show about the Texas Rangers, "26 Men.")

I was more distracted by the traffic around the 16th tee. I didn't realize that cars actually drove between the 16th tee and fairway and up the left side of 15 to get to their homes. After waiting for several cars to pass, I hit my only completely terrible drive on 16 the second day.

I agree with the comment that the Pebble Beach Lodge is reminiscent of a golf Disneyworld. I guess that should have bothered me, but it didn't -- not at all. My wife and I saw this as a once-in-20-years experience, and if the employees wanted to cater to our every whim almost before we could think of it, that's not such a bad thing. Once you put your peg in the ground on #1, it was all golf, and nearly all of it was great golf.

I really have no idea where Pebble Beach should be ranked, but it's my favorite course on earth, and I just can't imagine someone not feeling uplifted by playing there.

Rick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2003, 08:30:09 AM »
Pebble Beach has always been number one in my heart and yet I understand the feeling of those visitors coming for the first time. Anticipation, exhilaration and excitement of what is to come.

Yesterday, I went down to the pro shop to see if I could get some friends off a litle earlier than their 3.30pm start time. What did I see but a swarm of players, caddies, starters, marshalls, rubberneckers, all hanging around the area by the clock. Someone earlier mentioned Disney World, sadly I must agree. The rapacious raising of the green fee, the disregard of players by grounds crew, the attempt to dissuade players of good caliber from playing the tips, all make the Beach experience less than sastifactory.

However, no matter what the drawbacks once on the course all is forgiven.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Pebble...
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2003, 09:37:59 AM »
"However, no matter what the drawbacks once on the course all is forgiven. "

Truer words have never been spoken.  Yes, Pebble does have its problems, logistical and otherwise.  To deny the greatness of the golf course, well... to each his own, as I say we've argued this too much already.

But leave it to Mr. Huntley to sum it up perfectly... very well said, Bob.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble...
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2003, 09:52:31 AM »

Quote
"However, no matter what the drawbacks once on the course all is forgiven. "

Truer words have never been spoken.  

Gosh, I wish Rick had put it this way!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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