Design/Build article

[Tom_Doak]

Bob
If human nature requires very tight safe guards what is the point of leaving the house?
Jeff was referring to one cry baby individual and relating that to human nature - I disagree unless he meant it is natural for every once in a while to come across a human that can't relate to the others in a meaningful way.
He also used Carte Blanche - what percentage courses in the history of the world have had Carte Blanche?
I don't know what his argument style is called, strawman, red herring or throwing the baby out with the bathwater...
They sure seem like generalizations to me.
I prefer specifics.
What is wrong with the methodology that allowed Don and I to build a great golf course for a great price?
Cheers

Mike:

There's nothing at all wrong with that methodology, as long as you never pick a bad client or have a project budget blow up.  But if you build 10 or 20 more courses, it's bound to happen somewhere down the road.  And I hope for your sake it's AFTER your reputation is secured, because when it does happen there is nobody else to blame!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bob,

At some point, I agree with Mike Nuzzo that its just not right to want to go for the jugular and get the absolute lowest price, if you want a quality project.  As MY suggests, we wonder why its so easy to pay a huge design fee, and then argue pennies when you want a good contractor to finish the project, which has just as much to do with long term enjoyment.

And, the pride of low cost is always superceded by the pain of low quality.  No disagreements, in that we all want to work with people who are fun to work with.

My only disagreement with Mike N is that that one crybaby always seems to surface and make the most noise, and its just something that we end up having to deal with.  If I competitively bid to a few guys I am willing to work with, then its harder for that issue to come up.

BTW, we also ask for personell on the job and that can be as important as price.  I recall feeling (perhaps unjustly) years ago that I was going to get Wadsworth's C crew, because they were pursuing so much "celebrity" work, whereas LUI and a few others I felt like I would get their very best crews because of our relationship. If you bid to three good contractors, one might already have their best committed, but the timing might be better to get lower prices (hopefully by less than 5% lower) and the best people, always a winning combo.

The last part about the contract bid method is this.  Even the greatest rock band in history was better than the sum of its parts. (Beatles) with, by most accounts a weak drummer.  In reality, big contractors pay more and tend to get the best people, although its obviously variable.  Do we know that the guys the design-builder picks to build his golf course are the best, most experienced people?  We don't, and as we all admit, it does come down to people.

Also, I think different perspectives rather than the same old group of guys can be a good thing.  If we critique gca's for pushing the same work out the door (as we do, unless we are talking about favored guys here) is there anything suggesting that a gca using his long time favored shaper is going to put out a different product from course to course?  Again, most here would say that is what happened to Rees, but wouldn't admit it could happen to CC, although, there are industry whispers that their style is getting a bit repetitive, too.

So, there are a lot of factors to consider.  Its not only good people, but also good people really able to commit and be motivated at the time of design and construction (I have seen guys, hell maybe even me, turn out less than enthusiastic projects while going through a divorce, sick kid, drinking problem, etc.) Of course, that all balances out over the course of a career, but for any given project, it can be a problem.

To be honest, isn't that the reason Wolf Point turned out so well?  Don and Mike, talented, committed for their own reasons, and lets not forget - a good owner, too!  I don't think it was the contracts they signed that made that project so good.....

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
Two things from above:
I agree on the contractor having different classes of crews.  I just saw an example of where a committee was so infatuated with a contractor because he had worked for TW that they could have had Elvis shaping for them.  The shaper was not one of their better shapers but no one knew it.  And they still don't.  that's a committee for you.  Anyway, that's not right for a contractor to know he can get by with that and do it. 

Secondly,  I have a couple of guys i use and they will tell you they make much  working for us than they do for the large contractors.  I have not seen many of the large contractor shaper guys that impress me as much as having guys that know what i want.  But then I probably don't impress them either.

[Don_Mahaffey]

One person not mentioned much in all this talk about "people" and getting the right guys on the job is the client. I think it takes a special client to really let a design build succeed to the max.
In the case of Wolf Point and Mike Nuzzo and myself, we were very fortunate to work for a man who gave us the chance to have some fun and do some good work as well. He could be very tough, he demanded results, he expected us to give blood, but he never, ever failed to keep a promise or meet an obligation. With him, once a deal was negotiated, it was done and time to get to work. I don't think DB is going to suit every client. But for the client who is on site a lot and willing to trust in his team, its the best possible process.
For the guy who approaches every day like a new negotiation, he needs to spend a few more dollars and hire a plan drawer and a contractor just so he'll have something to chew on everyday.