A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,


I'm always up for a trip to Silloth.

[Ed Tilley]

I played Silloth yesterday for the first time in 12 years. Weather was great and course was in fantastic condition - fast and firm with reasonable rough and the heather in bloom. A wonderful course.


We had to give all our details for insurance purposes as they have real problems with houses close to oob on 17, 18, and particularly 11. The pro said it is so bad that plans are in place for new holes.


There will be a new tee behind the 9th green and a new 10 hole doglegging left to a green back from the current 10th green. 11 will become a par 3 with the green site where it currently is but remodelled. 12 would become a par 4 as the club owns a fair amount of land in the gorse behind the current 12th green.


I’m not sure how likely these changes are or how soon they may come but the pro was very positive about them.

[Mark Saltzman]

Is the issue with the tee shot on 11? Perhaps that would explain the placement of the directional post... I hit a drive right over it, only to find my ball in the tall grass left of the fairway.

[Ed Tilley]

Is the issue with the tee shot on 11? Perhaps that would explain the placement of the directional post... I hit a drive right over it, only to find my ball in the tall grass left of the fairway.

There are caravans on the corner of the dogleg to the right. A big slice - 20 yards right - will go into the caravan park. Ridiculous really that the caravans were put there well after the course was built and when there are fields all around that aren’t in the “firing line”.

[Sean_A]

So, that field should have very limited development possibilities because it is next to a golf course? Should the club then pay a yearly fee to the owner for devaluing their land?

I fail to understand why golfers think it is okay to spray balls into neighbouring properties. No, golf clubs need to learn how to be good neighbours even if it requires altering courses.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ed,


Who is the architect for the changes?.... Never been to Silloth.


Ally

[Mark Pearce]

Thy have had problems with 11 for years.  I believe the current hole was moved left, making it more of a dogleg, whereas previously you played more over the shoulder on the right.  It would be a shame to lose 17 or 18 as they currently are.  12 changing might not be a bad thing, it's a good hole but pretty much the same hole as 16 anyway!  I'm surprised to hear that either 17 or 18 is a problem.

[Ed Tilley]

So, that field should have very limited development possibilities because it is next to a golf course? Should the club then pay a yearly fee to the owner for devaluing their land?

I fail to understand why golfers think it is okay to spray balls into neighbouring properties. No, golf clubs need to learn how to be good neighbours even if it requires altering courses.

Ciao

If you look at the caravan park development it is ridiculous where it was built - or more accurately where the caravans were placed - given the abundance of land around it. Many places have limited development possibilities precisely because of what is around it.


Extending your logic, if I buy a field next to the existing M4 motorway, can I claim compensation from the Highways Agency for devaluing my land? Or build a house 10 yards from the motorway and get the road rerouted because the noise and pollution is intolerable?

[Ed Tilley]

Ed,


Who is the architect for the changes?.... Never been to Silloth.


Ally

Mackenzie apparently

[Paul Nash]

they did the same at North Hants. The golf club sold some land to enable a huge housing estate. Then they built right next to the end of the course and forced the club to change a par 3. With a multi-thousand house development this was easily avoidable!

[Niall C]

Ed

Sean is absolutely correct. Whatever you use your land for you should have the right to enjoy it peacefully without golf balls landing on your head. What's more that's the legal view so the ridiculous position would be to ignore the law.

The other thing to maybe consider is that when this hole was built and the caravan park was built, it might not have been in range from the tee anyway so perhaps it wasn't a consideration ? Whatever the truth in that suggestion, their has been concern about this hole for decades. I first played the course when it was the old hole (25-30 years ago ?) and it was straighter and less left to right. I only have a very vague memory of it but the mound to the right, which I think has been reshaped to shift it right, was less pronounced and bang in the middle of the fairway such that the ball would tend to slip off either side.

The initial change was to make it a left to right dogleg. They subsequently brought the OB in so that balls landing hard on the mound could easily get a hard kick OB. Members were well aware of that and tended to play left side of fairway.

Re proposed new 10th. It was never a great hole but it was a tricky one. For as long as I was a member their was talk of buying the field beyond to extend the hole and I vaguely recall that was Dr MacK's thoughts back in the day also. That talk seemed to go away once they rebuilt the current green in the early 2000's. There was also the suggestion then of putting a tee in on the first dune ridge to the right and rear of the 9th green. It would have made the 10th a straighter and better hole but also a much more dangerous one. At the moment it's a sharp dog-leg left with OB (public footpath) beyond the landing area for the drive. In all my time as a member down there I never saw anyone go OB That wouldn't be the case with the new tee hence presumably the idea to move the green ?

The only problem with moving the green is it's my understanding their is an old Roman fort up in that area to the left of the dog-left of the fairway which presumably they would need to circumvent ? It all seems like a lot of work to resolve any issues with the 11th. 

Niall

[Niall C]

Thy have had problems with 11 for years.  I believe the current hole was moved left, making it more of a dogleg, whereas previously you played more over the shoulder on the right.  It would be a shame to lose 17 or 18 as they currently are.  12 changing might not be a bad thing, it's a good hole but pretty much the same hole as 16 anyway!  I'm surprised to hear that either 17 or 18 is a problem.

Mark

I have to disagree on 12th. It's a very fine hole and possibly the best of the par 3's. It's also not really like 16 which is a very definite plateau green that is much smaller and once you're on it's fairly straightforward putt. Possibly the worst hole on the course. The 12th in contrast requires different shots depending on what side the pin is. The green is also larger and has a definite fault line up the middle making it difficult if you are on the wrong side.

Niall

[Niall C]

Ed,


Who is the architect for the changes?.... Never been to Silloth.


Ally

Ally

Tom MacKenzie did the redesign of the 6th green a number of years ago. It's not a bad green in itself although it has changed the dynamic of the hole, and not for the better in my view but then I've only played the new green a few times.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

I played Silloth yesterday for the first time in 12 years. Weather was great and course was in fantastic condition - fast and firm with reasonable rough and the heather in bloom. A wonderful course.


We had to give all our details for insurance purposes as they have real problems with houses close to oob on 17, 18, and particularly 11. The pro said it is so bad that plans are in place for new holes.


There will be a new tee behind the 9th green and a new 10 hole doglegging left to a green back from the current 10th green. 11 will become a par 3 with the green site where it currently is but remodelled. 12 would become a par 4 as the club owns a fair amount of land in the gorse behind the current 12th green.


I’m not sure how likely these changes are or how soon they may come but the pro was very positive about them.

I have done a sketch based on your comments - can you confirm if it is what they are going with?


Holes 10-11-12





I have done a sketch which is more controversial Holes 1-17-18

[Niall C]

Ben

Good stuff.

I think your sketch of the 10th-12th shows the issues with the redesign of the 10th. Your first option shows how easy it would be to slice it OB which would be replacing one danger with another, while the second option takes care of that but perhaps brings the 13th green into play. It also goes over where I think the Roman fort is located. How long are the holes and how far to the dog-leg on the 10th ?

The new 11th and 12th could work well although they might need to shift a fair bit of dirt on the 12th.

Niall

[Niall C]

Ben

Have you played Silloth ?

Re new 17th keep the drive and play to the new green. It's only the approach shot that is an issue.

The new 18th could work well however not sure the change in the 1st is worth it to accommodate it. Where you site the new tees sits on top of a ridge and was/is sometimes used for the winter tee. From there you probably could play to the practice ground OK but that practice ground is devoid of character having been largely bulldozed at some point to create a large flat rectangular area. You'd need to do a fair bit of shaping to make it interesting I'd have thought.

From there your new second tee sits right behind the existing tee that sits up on ridge, and therefore the new tee would be unsighted unless you built it up greatly. You could move it nearer to the existing first fairway where there is a ridge that runs up the side but that might make it closer to line of play off the new 18th tee. I also tend to think the 2nd doesn't need the extra distance. The hole is all about the approach shot and it has a decent enough carry off the existing tee anyway.

All in all I think moving the 17th green as you suggest is the only change I'd vote for but then I'm maybe more conservative in these things than a lot of people. The new tee and reshaping of the start of the fairway on the 18th (the last 5-10 years ?) has largely resolved the issue of balls going OB as far as I'm aware but could be wrong.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

Have you played Silloth ?

Re new 17th keep the drive and play to the new green. It's only the approach shot that is an issue.

The new 18th could work well however not sure the change in the 1st is worth it to accommodate it. Where you site the new tees sits on top of a ridge and was/is sometimes used for the winter tee. From there you probably could play to the practice ground OK but that practice ground is devoid of character having been largely bulldozed at some point to create a large flat rectangular area. You'd need to do a fair bit of shaping to make it interesting I'd have thought.

From there your new second tee sits right behind the existing tee that sits up on ridge, and therefore the new tee would be unsighted unless you built it up greatly. You could move it nearer to the existing first fairway where there is a ridge that runs up the side but that might make it closer to line of play off the new 18th tee. I also tend to think the 2nd doesn't need the extra distance. The hole is all about the approach shot and it has a decent enough carry off the existing tee anyway.

All in all I think moving the 17th green as you suggest is the only change I'd vote for but then I'm maybe more conservative in these things than a lot of people. The new tee and reshaping of the start of the fairway on the 18th (the last 5-10 years ?) has largely resolved the issue of balls going OB as far as I'm aware but could be wrong.

Niall

Yes I have played Silloth many times when BUDA was there and I nearly killed Mark Pearce with a pretty radar accurate missile on the 3rd. Its a cracking course and if it was closer to a main city it certainly would be a lot higher in the golf rankings


The 1st 17th and 18th exercise is more of out the box approach. Maybe the club should start planting trees at the boundaries to infuriate the residents by obscuring their views but say its vital for safety reasons 

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

Good stuff.

I think your sketch of the 10th-12th shows the issues with the redesign of the 10th. Your first option shows how easy it would be to slice it OB which would be replacing one danger with another, while the second option takes care of that but perhaps brings the 13th green into play. It also goes over where I think the Roman fort is located. How long are the holes and how far to the dog-leg on the 10th ?

The new 11th and 12th could work well although they might need to shift a fair bit of dirt on the 12th.

Niall

Niall,

I was hoping to get a response from you re the 10-11-12 holes. Yes a fair bit of dirt to be moved around and if done right will look great.

From Google Earth Pro the new 10th would be 330-360 ish to what I have drawn.

New 11th would be 160-185 yards and 12th - 370-450 yards wish

Cheers
Ben

[Niall C]

Yes of course BUDA. It was me you nearly hit on the 3rd ! It was just Mark who had words with you after 

Re 10th - you may recall on the 13th that the approach sat on top of a dune ridge, and that the ridge extended beyond the 13th green towards the existing 10th green, meaning that the drives for the new 10th would land in the face of that ridge leaving a (totally ?) blind approach. Not ideal, as Silloth already has 3 totally blind approaches.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Yes of course BUDA. It was me you nearly hit on the 3rd ! It was just Mark who had words with you after 

Re 10th - you may recall on the 13th that the approach sat on top of a dune ridge, and that the ridge extended beyond the 13th green towards the existing 10th green, meaning that the drives for the new 10th would land in the face of that ridge leaving a (totally ?) blind approach. Not ideal, as Silloth already has 3 totally blind approaches.

Niall

Well in my defence the tee shot was blind and no bell?! Mark went crazy and I made it up on the 2nd at Perranporth to allow Mark to hit a pretty short iron to the par 5 2nd green. Maybe next time I need to bring a couple of hard hats from work to protect my fellow BUDAites from certain missiles next time 


I remember the 7th green approach was also blind. It was so much fun when we played there and the wind switched around on both days.


Will be interesting to see what M+E proposals are