A Cumbrian Couplet: SILLOTH ON SOLWAY GC

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

Re: Rye's 11th - since when are water and sand equally punishing/severe hazards?

If the water right of the 11th fairway were sand, the hole would be very different.

[Michael Whitaker]

Thanks, mates, for this discussion! I truly hope that Buda 2012 does take place at Silloth.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean

Firstly the 12th is not like the 16th, they require totally different shots.

Niall on 12, I hit 3r, bounced through the green
16, I hit 5i bounced through the green.
Wind assisting both times, the run ups didn’t’ look on to me.  On the day “similar”.

I came to Siloth from Lytham.  It put a smile back on my face.   In short found it a delight but ain't no Dornoch, Lahinch, RSG (add your own) is it?

Maybe there's lots more to see on repeat visits but I didn't see it I liked the greens (loved 6 - I'll look for a picture- IMO the standout par 3) but they’re not up there with TOC or Deal. 
I bumped into Sean coming off 9 and my off the cuff comment straight away was about the similar mid length holes and how it felt short.  I then teed it up and came up just shy of the shallow swale in front of the green on 10 into the wind.
Unlike Sean, I rather like the 17 especially with the front pin position.  There was space behind our group, so a couple of us dropped extra balls and tried to chip down the back of the bunker and up on the green.  Never got close but it was a lot of Fun trying.

If you’re looking for hyper critical I thought there were a couple of strange walks between holes in what (From memory 9-10 and 16-17) is otherwise a lovely compact course.  An easy walk and overall this is an ideal BUDA venue and well worth the windscreen time.   I’d love another crack at it

[Mark Pearce]

Tony's comments confirm for me that these guys played with a very odd wind indeed.  I'm guessing that on 1 it was helping and from the left?  Either that or they were fobbed off with very advanced tees of the day.  If I hit a really good drive on 1 I'm pleased to be hitting a 6 iron approach, playing into the wind which (bar the day I played with Scott and ndrew, which was dead still) it always is.

[Scott Warren]

Mark,

Even on the still day we had, I hit a solid drive at the first and had a 6i in.

As I recall it we were first group off after the club championship or monthly medal. It was a Saturday afternoon - and the tees were pretty well right at the back.

[Sean_A]

Tony's comments confirm for me that these guys played with a very odd wind indeed.  I'm guessing that on 1 it was helping and from the left?  Either that or they were fobbed off with very advanced tees of the day.  If I hit a really good drive on 1 I'm pleased to be hitting a 6 iron approach, playing into the wind which (bar the day I played with Scott and ndrew, which was dead still) it always is.

No, the wind was quartering against off the left on #1.  I can't tell you where the tee markers were as I didn't pay attention to the blocks. 

I spose Tony's comments echo mine.  Silloth falls short in terms of quality with a lot of the big boys, but that isn't really what the course is about.  Silloth is more like a Brora or a Machrihanish or a Pennard - courses most wouldn't say are among the best in the world, but are often cited as among the favourites of many.  For instance, Formby is a superior course (in the same league as Deal so a possible candidate for top 100 world) in terms of the design, but Silloth is a charmer and one I would look forward to playing again. 

Ciao

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

I just don't get it.  here is no way on God's earth that I can reach 1 with a drive and 8 iron with any sort of wind against.  As Scott says, for him (and he's longer than us) on a perfectly still day, it was driver 6 iron.  That's what I'm struggling with.  Of all the criticisms I might have expected of Silloth, lack of length really wasn't one.  If anything, on  a windy day, the front 9 can feellike a bit of a slog.  The driver/8 iron criticism just isn't right, in my book and I can't work out how that's the impression both you and Tony came away with.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I hope it isn't a simple matter of we played the daily tees and you play the medal tees?

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean:

The card. I believe we played the white tees.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

With Scott and Andrew, on the only perfectly still day I believe there has ever been in Cumbria, we played the whites.  In the 10 or so other games I have had there I think I've played the whites once and the yellows every other time.  As you'll see from the card, there isn't that much difference on a lot of the holes, anyway.  I do wonder if for some reason the yellow tees were some way forward when you played?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Yes we were off the Yellows, I din't think they were particulalry forward as I do then to look at the tee posts for first info on arrivingat a hole.

extra's distances
20 yards on   4
35!           on  7
23           on  8

Later two into wind.

Would have removed a couple of 8i from Sean's hands!

[Scott Warren]

The yellow tee is also a fair distance to the right of the blue/white tee at the 2nd, a worse angle for a crack at the green as it forces you to carry more of the dune.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Like it or not the reputation of a coursewhen discussed in a clubhouse, tnds to accord the the most weight  to the opinions of the low cappers.  They will tel you about the condition of the greens and the length the club made them play from.   If Siloth wants to be better known it might help to move some Yellows back.It would appear that is particulalry so when the wind is from the south and east.

 Strange world we live in.

[Scott Warren]

Tony,

Were you fellas told you had to play from the forward tees? We rocked up, paid our £50 and they said the whites were fine, and that was on a Saturday afternoon when the members had just been using them (when you'd think they might not want the extra traffic on them).

[Niall C]

Tony/Sean,

It would appear that maybe you didn't quite play the old lady when she had her teeth in ! As you say, Silloth is a charming course even off the medals (whites). Loads of birdies and eagles to be had but every single hole can just as easily bite if you hit a loose one.

That Golf World Top 1000 UK courses book had it the 4th most difficult in the UK but I reckon that would be for the blue championship tees which are worth playing off if only once a year just to remind yourself how difficult the game can be.

Its a shame you didn't play it at a bit more of a stretch because I think then you would have really got to think about the contours. Playing an approach shot with a 4 or 5 iron or longer having to land it short and work with the contours is a good bit harder and more fun than landing the ball on a green with a short iron. As you say, Silloths greens aren't really that startling although there are a few good uns.

A couple of examples. The 3rd hole usually has wind maybe slightly against but more often across for the drive. Usually its across left to right. If you lose the ball to the right you end up in the grassy hollows on the right or worse. From there you haver a tricky approach into a head wind to mid iron or wood to a plateau green falling away on the left. Alternatively if you try and allow for the wind and aim left and the ball doesn't come round onto the fairway you are in a huge natural sandy waste bunker having to eithe go out sidey ways or go over a pile of junk to get to the green. Possibly a hole which gets harder the more you play it simply because the more you play it the more you appreciate its dangers.

Niall

[Niall C]

Second example is the 7th, a fabulous hole of risk and reward with not a bunker in sight. The tee is offset to the left and from Seans photo you can just about make out the ridge running in line with the tee to a dune on the other side of the fairway. From a short tee you just ignore that and aim left and beyond. Further back you have to contend with it meaning if you take the tiger line and land your drive on the left side of it and in doing so risking landing in the field of thick heather and do mange to hit the fairway your ball gets a bit of a kick left towards the hole. Not only does your ball get a kick on but you are now approaching the green from a better angle. Alternatively taking the safe route to the right means getting a kick right in a direction perpendicular to the line of play and taking you to the right side of the fairway where not only do you have a longer approach shot but you have to carry the length of the right hand side dune ridge, which is all rough, to get to the green.

Whether or not the effect of the ridge was found by accident when they moved the tee to the left, or whether it was a bit of inspiration I don't know but its brilliant all the same.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Tony/Sean,

It would appear that maybe you didn't quite play the old lady when she had her teeth in ! As you say, Silloth is a charming course even off the medals (whites). Loads of birdies and eagles to be had but every single hole can just as easily bite if you hit a loose one.

That Golf World Top 1000 UK courses book had it the 4th most difficult in the UK but I reckon that would be for the blue championship tees which are worth playing off if only once a year just to remind yourself how difficult the game can be.

Its a shame you didn't play it at a bit more of a stretch because I think then you would have really got to think about the contours. Playing an approach shot with a 4 or 5 iron or longer having to land it short and work with the contours is a good bit harder and more fun than landing the ball on a green with a short iron. As you say, Silloths greens aren't really that startling although there are a few good uns.

A couple of examples. The 3rd hole usually has wind maybe slightly against but more often across for the drive. Usually its across left to right. If you lose the ball to the right you end up in the grassy hollows on the right or worse. From there you haver a tricky approach into a head wind to mid iron or wood to a plateau green falling away on the left. Alternatively if you try and allow for the wind and aim left and the ball doesn't come round onto the fairway you are in a huge natural sandy waste bunker having to eithe go out sidey ways or go over a pile of junk to get to the green. Possibly a hole which gets harder the more you play it simply because the more you play it the more you appreciate its dangers.

Niall

Niall

The course had enough teeth with the rough, heather, fairly narrow fairways and many greens with gunge nearby.  Silloth doesn't need a lot of wind when presented in this manner.  Of course we weren't to know about the similar approach lengths from the yellows beforehand, but it wouldn't have made much difference as we had some long cappers with us and it wouldn't make sense to stretch an already challenging course for them. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

So on one hand it's too short and too easy with boring greens, but on he other hand it's so difficult that high handicappers can't face it from 6400 yards?

[Sean_A]

So on one hand it's too short and too easy with boring greens, but on he other hand it's so difficult that high handicappers can't face it from 6400 yards?

Scott

First rate interpretive skills on display above.  Being a journalist must come naturally to you.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Scott

First rate interpretive skills on display above.  Being a journalist must come naturally to you.

Ciao

Sean,

Remember he worked at the Daily Mail, so he has learned from the best!

Still, that is sort of what your evaluation of the course reads like.  Hopefully we'll be able to sort BUDA out next year over a weekend so that you can join us and we can rejoin this conversation over a game (and later over a pint of Jennings).  I won't let you hit any more than an 8 iron into the par 4s on the front 9, though, but then you won't need to!

[Sean_A]

Mark

Huh?  A 1* for a course thast too short, too easy and with boring greens?  You have a different issue than Scott.  He doesn't interpret well, but you have a selective reading disability.  These sorts of problems with reading tend to happen when one isn't as objective as he could be.

I hope we get on track with BUDAs on the weekends.  

Scott has already stated that he believes Silloth to be top 100 in the world.  To me this means Silloth is superior to Pennard, Brora, Portrush Valley and Castletown.  I don't buy that unless he thinks they are all top 100 as well.  Then of course we have to think about what gets tossed for all these courses!  Do you think Silloth is superior to the above courses?


BTW - Perhaps I forgot to tell you that my 8 iron has a 31 degree loft - tee hee.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Huh?  A 1* for a course thast too short, too easy and with boring greens?  You have a different issue than Scott.  He doesn't interpret well, but you have a selective reading disability.  These sorts of problems with reading tend to happen when one isn't as objective as he could be.

I suspect it's more a professional skill than a disability, learned from long years of advocacy.  

[Niall C]

"Scott has already stated that he believes Silloth to be top 100 in the world.  To me this means Silloth is superior to Pennard, Brora, Portrush Valley and Castletown.  I don't buy that unless he thinks they are all top 100 as well.  Then of course we have to think about what gets tossed for all these courses!  Do you think Silloth is superior to the above courses?"

Sean

I've only played Brora (a number of times) out of those you mention but Silloth is easily much better. I've not played nearly enough courses round the world to state where it comes in the world list but if I had a choice I would play it ahead of Turnberry, Troon and a host of other courses north of the border. Basically its all you can ask for, challenging golf that is great fun with great variety.

Brora ? Well it has sheep...............eh, nice views ?

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

Thats fair enough then and in and of itself will explain the differences in our opinions on Silloth.  I would put Silloth in a dead heat with Brora in just about every way.   

I too would rather play Silloth over Turnberry, Troon and host of other courses north of the border.  The previous line is for Scott's benefit as it will be interesting to see how he interprets it.

Ciao

[James Boon]

Very interesting and entertaining discussion on Silloth chaps! Fingers crossed all goes well for Buda there next year...

As an addition to some of Sean's party finding it tough... Having not played Silloth myself, last year when someone told me they were heading to the Lakes on a golf trip I told them they had to play Silloth off the back of some of your opinions. When I met this guy this year, he told me the course beat them all up! Narrow fairways, strong wind, heavy rough. I think I'll leave recommendations to courses I personally know well from now on 

Cheers,

James