Scottish and Irish links - are they really firm and fast

[Ivan Lipko]

The FF conditions are typically associated with links courses. But are they really firm and fast - what's your experience? I never played there  - so I am really interested.

[Bill_McBride]

Ivan, I have been going over from America every year for the past ten and played links courses in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland.  Unless it's pouring down rain, every links has been fast and firm, it's a matter of pride in maintenance, plus the sand base.

Even the inland courses are drier than their American counterparts; it's a breath of fresh air and not to be missed.

[Shane Wright]

Ivan - I haven't traveled there near as much as Bill McBride, but have been 4 times with a 5th coming this summer (Ireland 3, Scotland 1).  Scotland completely shocked us as we knew it was going to be firm and fast, but did you really have to land a wedge that short of the green to stay on the green.......no wind or downwind, absolutely.  The courses in Scotland are typically a little flatter and less dramatic than Ireland so it gives you a few more opportunities play the firm and fast shots.  I'm not even sure if any of us fixed a ball mark the entire trip in Scotland over the course of 10+ rounds.

But Ireland has numerous places to play the firm and fast shots as well.   

[Niall C]

"I'm not even sure if any of us fixed a ball mark the entire trip in Scotland over the course of 10+ rounds."

So you're the culprit !

Bill

I'm not sure its pride of maintenance, I think its the prevailing conditions, weather/soil etc and no tradition (or budget) for keeping courses green. Basically, water is only used on courses to keep the grass alive where it is stressed. The weather is such that that isn't often.

Niall

[Rory Connaughton]

Ivan

 I agree with the previous comments and another factor beyond drainage is that the grasses provide very little friction so there is a lot of skidding of the ball which assists with run out.  I've seen the ball skid here on parkland greens that are very firm but not like on a links.

[Mark Smolens]

Having been across the pond to play links golf on only three occasions  , I do not believe that I have seen more than one or two ball marks in all of the rounds played -- which includes at least five rounds played in driving rainstorms, one of which involved so much rain that the cups were filled with water. When your caddy is handing you a putter from 40 yards short of a green, he means it. . .

[David_Tepper]

Ivan -

You will not believe how much firmer & faster links courses in GB&I play until you get over there and see them for yourself.

DT

[Niall C]

Having been across the pond to play links golf on only three occasions  , I do not believe that I have seen more than one or two ball marks in all of the rounds played -- which includes at least five rounds played in driving rainstorms, one of which involved so much rain that the cups were filled with water. When your caddy is handing you a putter from 40 yards short of a green, he means it. . .

Mark

Seriously, next time have a look. You won't see plug marks like you see on soft greens but there will be "dimples" left on the green which may only be really visible when the sun is low, so in all seriousness suggest next time take a bit of time to have a look and fix any marks that are left. I usually work on the principle of at least fixing one, so if it isn't mine at least it averages out.

Niall

[Ivan Lipko]

Nice! Thanks for the answers.

We in Russia have only one course that you can say is firm and fast and I have recently found out that I enjoy it much more than the rest even though they might be more expensive and allegedly have better architechture.
That makes me think I do have to go and see those links courses for myself.

[James Boon]

Ivan,

The ENGLISH links play pretty firm and fast as well! 

But seriously, all the links courses play firm and fast but after a big downpour they are going to play a little softer. Plenty of links courses also have low lying areas near the sea, and if the water table is high, they can get soft at times. But generally, with dry summers, firm and fast they are, plenty of run on drives and approach shots needing to land short, especially downwind.

In dry conditions, inland courses will also play firm and fast. The more heathland courses like Ganton and Hollinwell are laid out to expect some run up approach shots. Some inland courses aren't really designed for run up shots but thats what you need to do. Obviously those designed for it play much better.

Why not come to England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales and try the links courses for yourself. You will be made most welcome!

Cheers,

James

[Shane Wright]

"I'm not even sure if any of us fixed a ball mark the entire trip in Scotland over the course of 10+ rounds."

So you're the culprit !

Ha!  I'm the first to fix em and agree with your philosophy of fixing one per green whether it is yours or not....we seriously couldn't find any in 2001.  One of the many reasons we fell in love.

[Ivan Lipko]

James,
I will most definitely come to play there - I consider the British Isles the Mecca of Golf - just looking at those gorgeous pictures of links courses makes me drool. T

[Thomas McQuillan]

 i find that there is more of a spring or bounce in the soil of links courses. the ball reacts as if its just landed on tarmac. even if a parkland course is parched, there just doesnt seem to be the same reaction.

[Mark Chaplin]

The east coast links tend to be a little drier than the west coast links courses.

Walton Heath often plays like an inland links and Alwoodley certainly had links like qualities when we played there in the BUDA with the ball bouncing nicely, needless to say Moortown didn't with heavy rain.

[Adam Clayman]

I understand they play F&F with plenty of thatch. Is that the case? I know, every course is different, but a buddy went there and could not believe the level of thatch.

[Michael Underwood]

Adam - Just returned from Northern Ireland and everything played fast and firm, but I did not notice large amounts of thatch on any of the courses that I played?  Royal County Down played the fastest followed by Royal Portrush, Portstewart, and Castlerock.  Even the parkland courses that I played, Malone and Clandeboye, were much firmer and faster than most U.S. parkland courses.  On a side note if you are ever in Belfast for a day with nothing to do go play either Malone or Clandeboye!  They do not get much mention, but are true hidden gems and worth playing if in the neighborhood!

[Kin Britton]

Far and away much firmer and faster than all but a few courses in the US.  There are varying degrees of firm and weather certainly has a real impact.  Our first trip to Scotland was quite wet and while the ball would still roll well, the courses just did not play as I had expected.  The last two trips were much drier and got much more bounce and roll.  It becomes very critical to not short side your self as a lob wedge can be a pretty useless club at times.

Again weather is a big factor, but the sandy soil and tight fescue grass allows a firm surface.  It really allows a much greater variety of shots around the green...bump and run, pitch, putt, play off a mound....it can leave you talking to yourself.  Absolutely my favorite style of golf....wish I could get over there every year.

[Bill_McBride]

  It becomes very critical to not short side your self as a lob wedge can be a pretty useless club at times.

The only reason you need a lob wedge on a links course is to escape one of those &@$/$&@ bunkers with the $&@#%+€ impossibly high lips!   

[Brent Carlson]

Ivan,

Yes, very much firm and fast.  The other thing you will notice is just how nice the turf is for being so firm and fast.  I could not believe the quality of the playing surface at the Old Course.  Give us your impressions after you've taken a trip to GB & Ireland.

[Ivan Lipko]

I surely will, thanks for the replies!

[Tyler Ince]

Ivan - after dozens of rounds in Scotland and Ireland I truly can say I do not fixing a single ball mark. Shane of course would never fix one in Scotland because he hits laser line drives and is usually chipping onto par 4s being the behemeth he is off the tee.

[Doug Siebert]

IMHO the big difference is that the turf over there sort of lays down on the ground, rather than having growing straight up like most US fairway turf does.  A drive landing in a US fairway is like landing in a sofa versus over there where its like landing in a wood chair, and the grass laying down offers much less friction to a rolling ball so it keeps rolling much better.

Unless you've played one of the very few courses in the US that everyone here agrees plays F&F above all the rest, or a course without fairway irrigation after a summer long drought where cracks are opening up in the ground and the grass is starting to actually die, you will have never seen F&F like you'll see over there.

Two things you'll want to do to get ready.  One, go out and play on the windiest days you can.  It won't be as windy as you'll see over there, but at least you can get a little practice in.  Two, practice hitting approaches and pitches/chips off hardpan - people who are used to hitting balls that are sitting up nicely or think a "tight lie" is a ball sitting on an A1 bent fairway mowed at 1/3" will quickly learn what a tight lie really is.  If you're a "picker" like me you could save yourself the trouble of looking for hardpan and just hit balls off a cartpath...

[Marty Bonnar]

Ivan,
welcome to GCA. Yes, I know you're an 80 poster already, but I haven't yet said "Hi!"
A Scotsman's answer to your question:
In a Scottish summer (a rare beast indeed!) our links are like Concrete. Watch old film of Opens played in Scotland. If the turf isn't green, it's been a warm summer!
As an example, from 60 or 70 metres out, I often play a 5 or 6 Iron with a putting stroke and watch the ball roll ALLTHE WAY. Simple...
Come on over. It's a Hoot!
best,
FBD.