The problem with golf in the States....

[Mike_Young]

Today I went to a golf course in the mountains to see some "lo-mow" bluegrass fairways.  I thought we might play a few holes while there and it really gave me an eye opener for why we have some of the problems we have in the States with golf today.
Now this particular course was designed by a signature firm on a piece of land that should have never been a golf course...but the work was good for the land and the maintenance conditions were very good....I would estimate construction cost at around 20 -25 mill...
The course is managed by one of the most respected management companies in the country...
The course has over 40,000 linear feet of cart paths...
Maintenance has to be between 800,000 to a mil...
And carts and equipment have excess wear and tear from the terrain...

Now having said all of the above....not placing any blame on any one....it just doesn't work....
the first 6 holes took 1:45 minutes then we skipped a few holes...
Why?
Most of my observations were of players that could not reach fairways or were in the tall rough ...
A membership was $200 per year and $35 per round....

These types of places exist for a while but can never be made to make money....sure they can be subsidized but eventually someone tires of such and then where do they go....

These places receive all of the publicity and praise but if we don't get course where the average guy can play and learn to play we will continue to go downhill.....

I just don't see a way to make these types of places work....and I don't see guys playing many of these places more than once....

How many are out there?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

There is blame to be levied. Someone, or several someones, told them it was a good idea. That list is probably a long one.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike,

There is blame to be levied. Someone, or several someones, told them it was a good idea. That list is probably a long one.

Jim:

I don't know what course Mike is talking about, but it is most likely a housing-development course where the developer decided he "had to have" golf as part of the community to attract upscale home buyers, and just didn't worry about the price tag for the course because he thought he'd make so much more off the real estate.  It worked out great for a lot of developers between 1995-2004, but not so much for the guys who built after that and didn't sell the lots.

Unfortunately, even a lot of those successful developers didn't really care about what happened to the golf course once the last lot was sold, and whether it was sustainable or not.  You can't blame the consultants for that part; heck, it was probably part of their advice!

[Mike_Young]

Jim,
I was trying to be nice.....

Tom,
It is an Indian Reservation...no housing....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
When I read your post I immediately thought of the golf course that was recently built for the Cherokees. No lie. 

Tom,
I'd have to think that most courses built for residential sales would need to be a lot more playable, and for a broader group, than the type of course that Mike described.

[Kalen Braley]

I think I may know which course it is..

...Salish Cliffs

[Ben Sims]

Mike,

It's easy to sit around and wonder how it was ever done that way.  It's easy to get upset over the outlandishness of the prior years of golf development.  I get bent out of shape all the time.  My most recent (month and a half ago) blow up was on the 10th fairway at Trophy Club of Atlanta in Alpharetta, GA.  My dad said I went into a 45 second loss of consciousness involving surface drainage that he understood about 10%. 

The more prudent discussion is the way forward, or out.  I've seen some golf courses I'd like to emulate from a construction or maintenance side here lately.  But I also have to wonder what the market is for subtlety and lack of flare outside of Aiken, SC.  Can a European-style model work outside of Europe?  My point is that among the cognoscenti, it's easy to talk about less bunkers, shorter yardages, and simpler (less expensive) construction and maintenance.  But how do you make it marketable to the consumer and not just the client?

[Grant Saunders]

This photo sums up for me the problem with golf in the States.....

[Bruce Wellmon]

Jim,
I was trying to be nice.....

Tom,
It is an Indian Reservation...no housing....

Perhaps Sequoyah National , Troon Golf in Cherokee, North Carolina?
(Which I have never played)
http://www.sequoyahnational.com/index.php

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
  My point is that among the cognoscenti, it's easy to talk about less bunkers, shorter yardages, and simpler (less expensive) construction and maintenance.  But how do you make it marketable to the consumer and not just the client?

Ben,
IMHO....
Are you favorite local bars and restaurants marketed nationally?  The mom and pops already know that you make your money in golf selling ot the guys in a 20 mile radius....now that's 90 percent of the courses in the U.S.  We have to realize that golf is going to be revived by owners and courses that this board will never mention or hear about except for their locale....

[Kris Shreiner]

Bruce,

I think you have it pegged. If it is, it's a real shame. I spoke with those tribal folks about developing a nice forecaddie program for their native youth to give them a chance to: earn some dough, tell visitors about their culture and perhaps help them get the vital interactive people skills all youth need to mature and succeed. They were asleep and didn't want to know. Seemed very political as well, but that's no surprise. A shame really, as properly lead, I believe something quite unique could have emerged. Mike's description conveys all the ingredients that a solid forecaddie program could help improve. Oh well.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Mike - You didn't finish the story... How were the low-mow blue fairways? We have done a few tees like that, and everything seems pretty positive.

[Ted Cahill]

Mike- your description reminds me of my recent round at Tetherow.  It appears the housing developers tried to parlay DMK's success in Bandon and apply it to a housing development course and cartball.  My analogy is chocolate syrup on lettuce.  The two simply don't work together.  I could go on quite long on the pointless "busy" design- but what stood out to me was how difficult it was to play for the 60's age couple who played with me (and seemingly the target audience for this second home residential course) who really struggled to play this course.  The home sites are empty- I can't imagine what a financial white elephant this effort has become.  I will be quite suprised if this course succeeds.  More likely a test case of the hubris of housing/golf development in the last decade.  On the other hand- I played Nicklaus Pronghorn on the same trip- a course/residential development that does a far better job at providing an interesting, appropriate course for the housing development-at the start of the trip- I would not have expected to enjoy the Nicklaus design way more than the Kidd- a stark reminder to keep an open mind when playing courses for the first time.  I look forward to returning to Pronghorn- I won't be going back to Tetherow.  

[Scott Furlong]

Grant,
Are you kidding me?   It’s the US Open with a bunch of volunteers……Staff +volunteers with Superintendents, Assistant Superintendents and Interns from around the world.  This happens at every tournament…..every tournament around the world.  Problem with the States?.......do a little homework with other majors or big tournaments outside the States and please report back to us…………..

[Grant Saunders]

Scott

Congressional has around 55 staff just for the day to day running of the course. If you had to cut that number by 20% how much of a difference would there really be in the maintenance?

I dont belive for one minute that mowing the fariways with 13 plus machines all directed towards the tee made the slighest difference to that course. At least they didnt hand mow the fairways like last time they held the Open there.

I dont care that its the US Open of any other tournament for that matter. If these players are as good as they are supposed to be, they should be able to show up at ANY golf course irrespective of the conditions and play.

As far as tournaments outside the US, we maintained a NZ open venue with 22 staff and 3 fairway mowers. The course was presented to a perfectly acceptable standard for such a tournament. I very much doubt any European tour event would involve such extravagance as seen in that picture.

People keep saying the key to the survival of the game is sustainability. Please tell me what exactly is sustainable about that photo?

Grant

[Steve Okula]

Grant,
Are you kidding me?   It’s the US Open with a bunch of volunteers……Staff +volunteers with Superintendents, Assistant Superintendents and Interns from around the world.  This happens at every tournament…..every tournament around the world.  Problem with the States?.......do a little homework with other majors or big tournaments outside the States and please report back to us…………..

No, it doesn't. In 2010 I hosted a European event played over 36 holes with 24 staff and zero volunteers. We had five fairway mowers.

There were no complaints at all from the pros.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Grant,
  Regardless is Congo has 55 staff members, I will promise that a good number of them were used to maintain greens and tees, etc on the other 18 holes. Dont think for a second that they let the Gold course go unmowed for 8 days.  If you want to compare events of Europe to events in the States, consider the last Ryder-Presidents Cups-volunteers from all over the world and more equipment than you can imagine. (Toro, I believe) The British Open at STAndrews last year was in the same boat. As will the Presidents Cup at RM this year.
  Volunteers are able to do the things that Superintendents only dream of being able to do-raking/blowing rough, hand raking bunkers, handwatering fwys, filling every divot after play, etc...Plus it's a nice feather in the cap for the volunteers and a great way to network and see a course at such a high level.
  When I was at Colonial, even being a smaller tour event, we had 10-12 volunteers and a few extra mowers. At lets be real, the US Open is not comparable to ANY European event. You dont see American golfers flocking overseas to play in any event other than the British Open.



Grant-This is a pic from last years British at STAndrews...7 mowers and not just any mower, a TRIPLEX, which many courses use to mow their greens with. At least inthe Congo piic, they're using 5 plexes...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Championship Courses are the root of all Evil unless accessible by the general Golfing Public – perhaps that might be a starting point and not just over the Pond.

Melvyn

Also perhaps looking more like a golf course than a super manicured garden entrance to The Chelsea Flower Show, may get the golfers into the Spirit of things.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Anthony

Sorry to be pedantic, but the pic is of Kingsbarns, not St. Andrews, so likely to be from the time of the Dunhill Cup. Your point is no less valid though.

[Mark Pearce]

Anthony

Sorry to be pedantic, but the pic is of Kingsbarns, not St. Andrews, so likely to be from the time of the Dunhill Cup. Your point is no less valid though.

Except in so far as Kingsbarns, being US owned and clearly aimed at the US market places a higher premium on presentation than many other leading UK clubs.  I suspect that St Andrews has more mowers (if pure numbers matter) but then they do have 7 courses.  Also, of course, Anthony finds a picture of 7 mowers at Kingsbarns and compares it to a photo of 13 at Congressional.  It's a while since I studied maths but 13 is nearly twice 7.

[Mike_Young]

All of what is being described above is part of the problem...
The model is broken..as we know....but this site seems to only dwell on the top handful of courses and question how they can change....thing is...they will not change and don't have to...they are outliers in the industry..( topic for another thread)  .it's the ones that emulate them that have the problem...
For the most part the golf business is a business where the decision makers (boards, developers, high net worth owners) don't know what they don't know but they think they know what they want.  And the industry is much to happy to oblige.  
For instance :
Toro has one guy that all he does is cater to the archie groups, the builder groups and the major venues and they have had such for years....we all pay for it....it isn't about the venues having to have the manpower and equipment as much as it is about the event itself and the promotion and goodwill that the various companies receive from such...AND the maintenance practices that are seen by the public....when I was in that end of the business the marketing guys always knew who the guys were that could be made into "signature supts" and had the ego or personality to want to be in as many magazines and photo ops as possible....we made sure they got it...
All the reps for the shirt pro shop lines have worked their way into passes and passes for their top customers
The golf car companies place as many carts in the venue as can be....and probably is much more a necessity for the week than the mowing equipment....
So the tournaments we see now are not about the golf as much as they are about promoting the event and all the different companies that support it...
Just take the USGA...what do we have Lexus?  Did you see alll the players driving the RX's?  And Amex and Rolex?  
 And then they have the new scoop of  "Brown- firm- fast...whatever....  BUt look at the Audubon program...sending emails out everyday trying to get your community, your school or whatever to sign up....it's about them trying to make it ;not about the issues...  All the supts know how to be environmentally sensitive and probably have been without the Audubon anyway....

It's all one big promo event and that is to be expected....but it filters down way to far into the everyday game.....and that main aspect of the game cannot afford such....just like the housing bubble....oh well....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Delamere Forest, one of the best maintained courses in Cheshire, is maintained all year round by five staff, including the course manager. That includes drainage, rebuilding bunkers, relaying tees, keeping woodland growth down, satisfying ecological demands and producing the quickest greens (day to day) in Cheshire apart from Hoylake.

[David Harshbarger]

Mike,

A number of recent mom and pop courses around here were built without GCA support.  They do well, but they invariably suffer from architectural issues.

If these are the courses thatvare going to make it, how do you get the builders and owners to engage professionals so the finished products avoid the avoidable flaws?

Dave

[Melvyn Morrow]

Yet the central model is alive and kicking, just look at the club scene in Scotland, take any small club, Moray with its one or two mowers , with the determination of The Green Keeper and his small staff, the great old courses are not only kept alive but function near as they were designed well over 100 plus years ago.

The Model has not changed but the expectation of the modern golfer has - he expect things to some to him instead of getting involved and working on his mind and game.

No, the fundamental game is still there and in good health, its not been killed or slowly strangled by the desire to win but of taken part, of trying to do ones best and thus  enjoying  the experience. After all that’s why we play golf in the first place – or is it all about money, taking the Judas trail, seeking the pot at the end of the Rainbow, if so, you will be very disappointed as no money was ever paid or found.

We do not need bling, fake aging, or over cultivated and spoilt courses set at just the right colour Green, nor do many of us want to pay for such things, preferring the original natural landscape of the surrounding, of being part of the environment and echo system that is at home in that part of the world. I do not like template courses or for that matter clones that mirror on'se Hilton Hotel room no matter which part of the world one is in.

Screw with the principle of GCA and you end up with housing complexes, island Greens, all there but in doing so has totally compromised the game of Golf. – yet golf is still alive in the club scene of Old Scotland and I am not referring to The Castle Course, Kingsbarn or Castle Stuart to name but a few.

The question is how long are we going to keep selling our golfing souls to the Men of Money who appear devoid of any interest in the game  (except from what they can squeeze from it).  I also question the intention of some of the big Design Houses owned by past Champions who provide their services to these Men of Destruction ofr the game of Golf.

But then again you may not agree, which is only right on a DG

Melvyn

PS Trust that I have not embarrassed anyone, if I have - tough, currently even in England I am allowed to voice my opinion although if we leave it to the lawyers and solicitors that precious right may be taken away because they do not agree that others are entitled to that most fundamental of Human Rights.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony

Sorry to be pedantic, but the pic is of Kingsbarns, not St. Andrews, so likely to be from the time of the Dunhill Cup. Your point is no less valid though.

Robin,
  I didn't think that it looked like STAndrews, but where I got the photos, that was the caption. Regardless, you understood the point that I was trying to make.
  Marc,
  I do know that 13 is more than 7, BUT those 7 mowers only have 3 reels, not 5 like the Congo pic. The mowers in the Congo pics are not used on greens, but the one in the STAndrews/Kingsbarn pics are....greensmowers on fwys? I think that points can be made either way. Those 7 machines at Kingsbarn, with 7 operaters is the same as have 4 machines/operaters at Congo. 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other if you want to split hairs.

Marc- Is this better? There is 13 or 14 in that pic/