Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?

[Ben Stephens]

Ben S:

Don't always believe what you read in the press these are stories that are blown out of proportion if a similar thing happens in London, Birmingham or Manchester they are localised if is was Belfast because of its recent history of the Troubles it is transmitted nationally or globally because of its recent history of the Troubles

Ben, that is total and utter crap. As Mark says, much of what goes on there to this day goes unreported so as not to give them the publicity they crave.

There are many reasons to criticise the British media. This isn't one if them.

Scott,

I dont think I am taking total utter 'rubbish', Mark is right in some respects there are a lot of things that go unreported whether its GB & NI, Iraq, Afghanistan or even Libya.

My NI friends say some stories in NI get blown out of proportion in the British media at times that they feel its sending out the wrong message. There have been worse crime offences to report in England/Wales that were not really reported in the national/global media. The British media tend to report on things that refers to the past (ie where the 'Troubles' were) or involves a famous celebrity which sells papers which I think is inconstitent reporting driven by economics. Even UK journalists these days have resorted to phone/email hacking which shows how desperate they are to sell papers in the current global economic situation.

I generally feel that some people are too harsh on NI. There are lots of crime happening everywhere else in the world and I actually felt safer on a night out in Belfast than I did with most English cities. I was wondering did you ever go to NI while you were in the UK there is no NI courses on your weblog. I am sure Mark has.

Ben
 

[Anthony Gray]

  The crowds are the problem not the venues.It would be great for TV.

  Anthony

Anthony, the crowds and the venues are all part of the problem.  Can the venue handle the crowds and the tented city and all its logistics?  Is there room at the venue for all the grandstands that serve so well at the Open Championship?  The courses in Northern Ireland are terrifiuc but not so much as Open venues.

  I ment the quality of the venues is not a problem.

  Anthony

[Scott Warren]

Ben

I dont think I am taking total utter 'rubbish', Mark is right in some respects there are a lot of things that go unreported whether its GB & NI, Iraq, Afghanistan or even Libya.

Your claim was that the British press beat up any crime story in Northern Ireland and try to link in to The Troubles. That simply isn't true.

My NI friends say some stories in NI get blown out of proportion in the British media at times that they feel its sending out the wrong message. There have been worse crime offences to report in England/Wales that were not really reported in the national/global media.

Please talk us through a few offences from England and Wales that went unreported and the lesser offences in Northern ireland that were beaten up and pinned to The Troubles.

The British media tend to report on things that refers to the past (ie where the 'Troubles' were) or involves a famous celebrity which sells papers which I think is inconstitent reporting driven by economics. Even UK journalists these days have resorted to phone/email hacking which shows how desperate they are to sell papers in the current global economic situation.

What point exactly are you attempting to make. ONE newspaper has been caught hacking celebrities' phones. One. I worked for perhaps the most celebrity-obsessed masthead in London and even there the bread and butter, lion's share of our coverage was parish pump news reporting unrelated to celebrities or terrorism.

I generally feel that some people are too harsh on NI. There are lots of crime happening everywhere else in the world and I actually felt safer on a night out in Belfast than I did with most English cities.

I felt much safer out at night in Moscow than I did in Luxor, with London somewhere in the middle. It's important to be mindful that perception of safety and reality are sometimes very different. And of course we should also not kid outselves that our feelings of safety in a foreign city are directly related to the size of that city's underworld activity.

I was wondering did you ever go to NI while you were in the UK there is no NI courses on your weblog. I am sure Mark has.

I'm not sure Mark has. He famously has never been to Ireland, but I'm not sure if that's the North as well or just the Republic.

I looked at going a couple of times, but the fact is most of my travel, even golf trips, was with my wife and she had little interest in going to Northern Ireland, so we went elsewhere. When your wife is the kind to let you play five rounds of golf on your honeymoon it's important to recognise you're on a good wicket and go with the flow!

[Tom_Doak]

The Troubles are over. There are a few druggies, lunatics and hopeless conflict junkies in the bandwagon. They are few in number and about 25% are undercover British agents and it is probable the Irish and Americans will have moles in there too. We are the safest part of the UK, thought like as we seen in America and the UK over the past 10 years, a group of weirdo's goofing around with guns pretending they are political carries more fear than the very real fear of crime on the streets. Anything that happens in Northern Ireland is overblown internationally. Scott, nothing is being covered up, people are bored of a bunch of irreverent idiots prancing around are TV screens. We want our News to about Health and Education (as well as McIlroy and politicians affairs )

Matthew:

If the Troubles are over, then all the credit will be to your generation for being the ones to overcome the history of previous generations.  And more power to you.

For them to really be over, the divide between Protestant and Catholic will have to break down, schools integrated, friendships formed.  Both sides will have to stop seeing the other as their adversary.  How's that going in Newcastle?  And how's it going in Belfast?

When I was about your age, in the 1970's, my dad would often make cryptic references to the differences between the Serbs and the Croats, the Turks and the Kurds, the Shia and the Sunnis, and how none of it had gone away.  I thought he was an old man, bound up in the disputes of a previous generation.  And, boy, was I wrong!!       Hopefully you will go on to prove me wrong again.

[mike_beene]

Perhaps this is an inappropriate or even ignorant question,but are the NI golfers Protestant  or Catholic,and would their religion keep those of the other from supporting them?

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

I dont think I am taking total utter 'rubbish', Mark is right in some respects there are a lot of things that go unreported whether its GB & NI, Iraq, Afghanistan or even Libya.

Your claim was that the British press beat up any crime story in Northern Ireland and try to link in to The Troubles. That simply isn't true.

My NI friends say some stories in NI get blown out of proportion in the British media at times that they feel its sending out the wrong message. There have been worse crime offences to report in England/Wales that were not really reported in the national/global media.

Please talk us through a few offences from England and Wales that went unreported and the lesser offences in Northern ireland that were beaten up and pinned to The Troubles.

The British media tend to report on things that refers to the past (ie where the 'Troubles' were) or involves a famous celebrity which sells papers which I think is inconstitent reporting driven by economics. Even UK journalists these days have resorted to phone/email hacking which shows how desperate they are to sell papers in the current global economic situation.

What point exactly are you attempting to make. ONE newspaper has been caught hacking celebrities' phones. One. I worked for perhaps the most celebrity-obsessed masthead in London and even there the bread and butter, lion's share of our coverage was parish pump news reporting unrelated to celebrities or terrorism.

I generally feel that some people are too harsh on NI. There are lots of crime happening everywhere else in the world and I actually felt safer on a night out in Belfast than I did with most English cities.

I felt much safer out at night in Moscow than I did in Luxor, with London somewhere in the middle. It's important to be mindful that perception of safety and reality are sometimes very different. And of course we should also not kid outselves that our feelings of safety in a foreign city are directly related to the size of that city's underworld activity.

I was wondering did you ever go to NI while you were in the UK there is no NI courses on your weblog. I am sure Mark has.

I'm not sure Mark has. He famously has never been to Ireland, but I'm not sure if that's the North as well or just the Republic.

I looked at going a couple of times, but the fact is most of my travel, even golf trips, was with my wife and she had little interest in going to Northern Ireland, so we went elsewhere. When your wife is the kind to let you play five rounds of golf on your honeymoon it's important to recognise you're on a good wicket and go with the flow!

This says it all from some perspectives - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnVrK38xI-A

The Mail is utter rubbish the only good thing they do is football transfer gossip! 

Mark and you need to go to NI and find out for yourself. I am going to put my time and effort on GCA matters rather than get buried in an argument about media and politics. For now I will rephrase 'Troubles' to 'Secretarian Violence' as generalisation ie. There is more secretarian violence in Glasgow than in Belfast mainly due to football!!

 

[Scott Warren]

Ben, I notice rather than refute any of my points you've decided to cut and run, with a sly kick on the way out the door.

The Mail is utter rubbish the only good thing they do is football transfer gossip!

To each their own, but about 60 million unique browsers a month disagree with you.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben, I notice rather than refute any of my points you've decided to cut and run, with a sly kick on the way out the door.

The Mail is utter rubbish the only good thing they do is football transfer gossip!

To each their own, but about 60 million unique browsers a month disagree with you.

Scott,

Have a look at Geoff Shackelford website re: Martin Samuel's 'overhyped' article. I can't believe he was sport's journalist of the year there are lots who are better writers. Are we allowed to have an opinion? well mine is that the Mail is a waste of money and too many celebrity articles which are shite.

Here is my short reply after fictionally running out and kicking the door down.

The press link the stories to past 'secretarian violence' (not specifically the actual 'Troubles') which is somehwat unfair to the majority of the people in NI. It is also individuals that destroy the peace image of NI which the press media love to expose and make it look worse. Thats an opinion.

There have been violence and crime reported on local news. I am not going to name places or be specific but there are cities in the UK that have a higher crime rate whether its murder, gun related or knife related than Belfast/NI. Find out yourself.

Dennis Potter is generally right about the media and that was 17 years ago!. Murdoch gave the go ahead for the phone hacking to sell papers and take a little dent in his finances through court cases. Sienna Millar was given £100K in damages but the paper probably sold a lot more than that! Proper journalism writing is going going.......... it is now heavily influenced by profits as you know stories (whether they are true or not) sells papers.

There was a recent article in the Sunday Times which was reported in the construction magazines 2 weeks before about Michael Gove (UK Education Minister) saying that architects have 'creamed in' the money in BSF (Building Schools for the Future) projects the media chose to believe an idiotic minister rather than investigate and get the facts and figures to give their own opinion rather than print an 'old news fictional story' It sends out the wrong message and the real message is that schools have vastly improved which goes mostly unreported and that the money not only went to architect but other professionals in the design team (Structural engineers, Quantity surveyors, other specific consultants and lawyers/solictors to write up the contracts.)

Your biggest crime is that you never visited NI to get to play RCD or Portrush and find out what it is like for yourself. Then you would have a proper opinion yourself.

Cheers
Ben

[Adam Lawrence]

Last night in Belfast... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13854027

[Ben Stephens]

Last night in Belfast... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13854027

Just read that on the news. Great timing! It also proves how high on the agenda NI it is presented in the news compared to two shots in London/Manchester or Birmingham. Its a pity that these individuals clash on religious secretarian grounds in which send the wrong message for the rest of NI to the outside world. This is located in a poor rough area of Belfast. Do the media put clashes between football fans high up on their agenda? no this is unfortunate for NI due to its recent secretarian violence history. It is now 1 step backwards the rest of the population have to work harder to take a step forward.

[Adam Lawrence]

Of course, Newcastle and Portrush are very different places compared to some of the less salubrious parts of Belfast. Twas ever thus. But the R&A, rightly, is risk averse. I think another Portrush Open will happen in time (RCD I doubt; from my understanding the Walker Cup was the limit of the club's ambitions), but I don't see it in the short term.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ben

MUCH HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED that has gone on in NI through The Troubles, but I fear we are not going anywhere on this subject except to confirm that The Open will never again be seen in NI.

I care not about colour, race or religion, as long as it is not forced down my throat. Every man woman and child has a right to exist and thus live a life of their making. If fortunate they also have the right to freedom of thought and the ability to voice it (without it embarrassing some sad closed minded individuals who should know better).

Our Political Masters have betrayed the majority of those living in NI. They have tuned their back upon the principal of One Man One Vote and forced through compromise after compromise as they ran out of ideas years ago as how to solve the violence in NI.

Nor was the cause of freedom more harmed than by money being raised and given to yesterday’s equivalent to AL-QAEDA in the form of the IRA.  But then we all knew the warnings that ‘we reap what we sow’.

All this has a serious effect on major sporting events being hosted by countries still going through the healing process. So No, The Open will not be seen in NI.

Melvyn

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

MUCH HAS NOT BEEN PUBLISHED that has gone on in NI through The Troubles, but I fear we are not going anywhere on this subject except to confirm that The Open will never again be seen in NI.

I care not about colour, race or religion, as long as it is not forced down my throat. Every man woman and child has a right to exist and thus live a life of their making. If fortunate they also have the right to freedom of thought and the ability to voice it (without it embarrassing some sad closed minded individuals who should know better).

Our Political Masters have betrayed the majority of those living in NI. They have tuned their back upon the principal of One Man One Vote and forced through compromise after compromise as they ran out of ideas years ago as how to solve the violence in NI.

Nor was the cause of freedom more harmed than by money being raised and given to yesterday’s equivalent to AL-QAEDA in the form of the IRA.  But then we all knew the warnings that ‘we reap what we sow’.

All this has a serious effect on major sporting events being hosted by countries still going through the healing process. So No, The Open will not be seen in NI.

Melvyn

Melvyn,

I agree with most of the statements that you have made. It is more likely that the European Tour would bring an event to NI than the R&A bringing the Open to NI under the current climate. There is still a chance that the Open will be brought back to NI. I feel that there is a perception with older people than me for a major sporting event not to go to NI because they have seen and lived through the Troubles and more fearful of it happening again it is small splinter groups that are causing the problems which they get great exposure from the mass media. Tis a shame that the opportunity of watching the best golfers in the world play Portrush or RCD is wasted.

Cheers
Ben


 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I do find that people from middle-England have a particularly one-sided view of Northern Ireland and its history...

I prefer listening to people who have closer experience...

All I can say is that from the relatively benign surrounds of Dublin (where the murder rate is many times higher than Belfast incidentally), it does appear that the North has gone a long way to sorting out its problems in the last 13 years... And that those who partake in violence are quickly identified by both sides of the political and religious divide as nothing more than hooligans and criminals...

To Mike Beene - Religion is playing an increasingly minor part in the new Irish generation... The Northern Irish golfers you refer to are from the Protestant background I believe... But absolutely this would have a negligible effect on people of all faiths and beliefs shouting for their success...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ben

For my sins I lived in NI for many years prior to The Troubles and through part of it. It was one on the most enjoyable times of my life until 1970/1 when I left.

Sitting on the grass of RCD after a good night watching the sunrise was something I have experienced more than a few times in the late 1960’s – real quality time

The bars were open all afternoon too, unlike the UK which required pubs to close circa 2.30pm, but Sunday drinking was either with a meal or over the border we went for a Sunday drinks – those were the days.

Melvyn

[Matthew Hunt]

Tom, in Newcastle 'the divide' is largely a non-issue apart from schooling, but that is slowly breaking down. My friends would be probably evenly from both sides but its not an issue really. a Lot of Belfast is the same but there is still large ghettoized communities which causes the same problems as in England and the US. There is the lack of political will to address that due to the fact the two partys sharing power are so ideologically different. I have been studying this at university and I fell the issues in NI are very similar to race issues in UK or the US. It just happens that NI is very easy for the media to over-simply and frame and there is a past conflict to link it too. Conflicts like the Serb one show a good example how through the  CNN effect oversimplification of the media through the media, actually complicates the conflict.

I think Rory is nominally a Catholic but does it really matter?

Brian, Belfast is a lot safer than most UK/Irish cities, and a great place to go out in. If you are near the Newtownards road you are seriously lost.

[Mark Chaplin]

Matthew - I am sure there are wonderful golf courses in NI capable of holding The Open and 99% of people are getting on with their lives and leaving the troubles behind. No doubt 99.9% of visitors have a wonderful experience and their only experience of underlying issues are murals and the open displays of loyalty in Unionist areas. Of course there are issues on the mainland and in the USA however we are very fortunate that we do not get the following type of headlines.

April 2011 - A 25-year-old new recruit to the Police Service of Northern Ireland has been killed by a booby-trap car bomb.

April 2011 - Republican dissidents opposed to the peace process used a bogus 999 call to try to kill members of the security forces in south Belfast early on Tuesday. The dissidents used a mobile phone call to claim a woman was in distress in the area as a means to lure police officers and soldiers to the scene where a bomb had been planted.

May 2011 - The parents of a Catholic police officer in Derry have been targeted in an arson attack.

May 2011 - A bomb has exploded in the centre of Northern Ireland's second largest city but nobody was injured after the area was evacuated. Three masked men carrying the device had burst into a branch of the Santander bank in Shipquay Street, Derry.

June 2011 - Viable pipe bomb devices have been found during security alerts in west Belfast and Newtownabbey.

[Ally Mcintosh]

June 2011 - Viable pipe bomb devices have been found during security alerts in west Belfast and Newtownabbey.

We've had two viable pipe bomb devices found in the last couple of years in the park round the corner where my kids play... Not sure you read about it though, Mark?

I reckon you are just trying to put the R&A off the scent of Portrush because you want it back to Deal first?

[Mark Chaplin]

Nice selective reading Ally!

The BBC should shoulder a substantial proportion of the blame because anyone in the UK reading its Northern Ireland news page would be shocked to learn what the IoS has reported today.  For we learn that between 2008-2010 there were no less than 272 paramilitary attacks – around two per week – and of those only 12 cases have been solved by the PSNI.  In 2010-11 alone there were 100 incidents involving bombs. The BBC only started reporting stories in detail when they could no longer be hidden away with one paragraph snippets buried with obscure one line headlines.

No we are very happy where we are at Deal and looking forward to the Amateur in 2013.

[Matthew Hunt]

Matthew - I am sure there are wonderful golf courses in NI capable of holding The Open and 99% of people are getting on with their lives and leaving the troubles behind. No doubt 99.9% of visitors have a wonderful experience and their only experience of underlying issues are murals and the open displays of loyalty in Unionist areas. Of course there are issues on the mainland and in the USA however we are very fortunate that we do not get the following type of headlines.

April 2011 - A 25-year-old new recruit to the Police Service of Northern Ireland has been killed by a booby-trap car bomb.

April 2011 - Republican dissidents opposed to the peace process used a bogus 999 call to try to kill members of the security forces in south Belfast early on Tuesday. The dissidents used a mobile phone call to claim a woman was in distress in the area as a means to lure police officers and soldiers to the scene where a bomb had been planted.

May 2011 - The parents of a Catholic police officer in Derry have been targeted in an arson attack.

May 2011 - A bomb has exploded in the centre of Northern Ireland's second largest city but nobody was injured after the area was evacuated. Three masked men carrying the device had burst into a branch of the Santander bank in Shipquay Street, Derry.

June 2011 - Viable pipe bomb devices have been found during security alerts in west Belfast and Newtownabbey.

Mark, I understand there is serious problems. For example I walked right past that bomb in April when it was live. Yet if we look at it objectivity, although Glasgow is a great city it has more sectarianism incidents and more violence than Belfast yet no-one want to take the Open away from Scotland.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I fear the group becoming known as the NEW IRA would relish an opportunity to state their cause.
Unfotunately the troubles are not over and an increasing number of youth who have no specific loyalty to Gerry Adams and the last generation of peacemakers are growing up.
Growing up frustarted with high rates of unemployment and lack of opportunity...which they blame on the British prescence..so I fear that the troubles are going to get worse not better over the next 10 years or so...if I think that as an inoocent by stander, I really do not see any chance of the R&A taking any chances at all.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I fear the group becoming known as the NEW IRA would relish an opportunity to state their cause.
Unfotunately the troubles are not over and an increasing number of youth who have no specific loyalty to Gerry Adams and the last generation of peacemakers are growing up.
Growing up frustarted with high rates of unemployment and lack of opportunity...which they blame on the British prescence..so I fear that the troubles are going to get worse not better over the next 10 years or so...if I think that as an inoocent by stander, I really do not see any chance of the R&A taking any chances at all.

Why single out that particular bunch of extremists today?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13854027
   


There are a no of small splinter groups struggling to gain popular support on both sides.   It is hard to see what they would gain from disrupting a major sporting event in a sports mad province.  They are looking for a role to play in a situation that is moving away from them, as peace is getting truly established.

  Anyone who was at the K club Ryder Cup could feel the excitement when the action arrived and Ulster would welcome The Open, with Rory and GMac and all the others completing, like it was time for a party.

I was in Portstewart in the summer of 1967 when the troubles started.  I continued going back for a month every year for a decade thereafter. Away from troubled areas like West Belfast or Derry, the only signs of what was going on was heavily protected Police Stations and Pubs.  Life in Portrush continued as before, except that the tourists stopped going.

Sadly news like this which may be related to ongoing police investigations of the leadership of that group will give the nervous all the excuse they need to stay away.

[Mark Chaplin]

Matthew - I am all for an old fashioned knuckle fight, sadly I spend my time dealing with the effects of guns. What doesn't happen in Glasgow is people being shot or bombed because of their occupation and/or their beliefs, if it does it is rare. The current position means that the R&A do not need to take a risk going to NI when they have a solid rota of venues. I would love to see the best in the world take on RCD, why hasn't the world championship (accenture?) thing come to NI yet, the sponsors must have a reason?

[Matthew Hunt]

The dissidents are not a group as such but a loose collective of individual's, they are too infiltrated to organize properly. What they are against is 'Normalisation' of the north, so would the logical and the courageous thing not to bring the open to NI. The R and A should not base their decisions not on media spin but on facts and the reality on the ground. Micheal, the difference now and 40 years ago is there is no oppressed minority anymore. However the way the coalition has dealt with Northern Ireland has been extremely poor. What we also must remember isa that a lot of the supposed paramilitary activity is cover for organised crime. Al-Qaeda is a much bigger threat to the Open.

Mark, Regardless of the cause Northern Ireland has a murder rate lower than Scotland. In fact it is the 2nd safest country in the world after Japan. Fear and Threat are not tied together and the R and A should take a leadership role.

[Rory Connaughton]

The US Open was just conducted outside of a city that is far more violent than Belfast.  Chicago has seen orchestrated flash mob riots during the first week of summer and virtually every other major US city has its share of violence not to mention the rare but very notable terrorism threat yet the US Open and all manner of massive sporting events go on, subject to appropriate security, without incident.

 I see no reason why the same cannot be true in Northern Ireland. In fact, that violence is not a major ingredient at Windsor Park or Ravenhill (which maybe even more relevant since there is probably more intersection between the Irish golf and rugby communities than soccer) suggests that it would not be an issue at an Open conducted in Northern Ireland.  What's more, if any group with an agenda was interested in disrupting a sporting event would it not have been more likely to happen during the 5 Nations in the 70's (when teams refused to come to Dublin with the exception of the English) or at any of the Scottish or English Open venues in the last 40 years?

I think Ally and Matthew have hit the nail on the head and my observations from many trips to NI in the last decade suggest that by and large people simply want to live their lives and be free to seek prosperity.  Although I have been engaged in a few strange conversations (including a particularly amusing one where my Dub father and our caddy at RCD spoke in a sort of code for the first three holes trying to figure the other's background) I have never once felt nervous.  An awful lot has been done to allow that in the last 15 years or so. Maybe not perfect but a lot better.  All you have to do is watch video of the playing of God Save the Queen in Croke Park and the respectful silence maintained by the spectators to realize that most people are prepared to move on.

Melvyn, you seem to be the only one posting on this topic to see this as an entirely one sided affair. Interesting.