Is it time for the Open to go back to Northern Ireland?

[JMEvensky]

I think that one difference between some local mid handicappers and overseas visitors is one of expectation. A 15 handicapper from a club in Northern Ireland would play RCD and be happy to get round without having to borrow golf balls and a score under 100.

I wonder if overseas players are more concerned about the score they shoot and get more distressed if they can't hit a par-4 in 2?

I probably should have qualified my comments by saying that I played RCD right after the British Am in 1999.The course was still set up pretty narrow and I got more than average wind.


About halfway through my round I was worried about breaking 100 and counting the number of golf balls I had left--and I was a lot lower than 15.What a golf course!

I think you're spot on about American versus Irish expectations.A lot of people just look at links courses as mutant golf and keep trying to fit the square peg of their game into the round hole of the golf course.Those guys are just ticking boxes on their to-do lists.

Some of us,however,embrace the challenge of "different" golf.But,you're probably right in that we're the minority.

[Martin Toal]

I think that one difference between some local mid handicappers and overseas visitors is one of expectation. A 15 handicapper from a club in Northern Ireland would play RCD and be happy to get round without having to borrow golf balls and a score under 100.

I wonder if overseas players are more concerned about the score they shoot and get more distressed if they can't hit a par-4 in 2?

I probably should have qualified my comments by saying that I played RCD right after the British Am in 1999.The course was still set up pretty narrow and I got more than average wind.


About halfway through my round I was worried about breaking 100 and counting the number of golf balls I had left--and I was a lot lower than 15.What a golf course!

I think you're spot on about American versus Irish expectations.A lot of people just look at links courses as mutant golf and keep trying to fit the square peg of their game into the round hole of the golf course.Those guys are just ticking boxes on their to-do lists.

Some of us,however,embrace the challenge of "different" golf.But,you're probably right in that we're the minority.

That wasn't a criticism, by the way, just a cultural observation. I expect you have heard the expression "It'll take 3 good shots to get on in 2 today", when referring to a hole played into the wind.

[JMEvensky]

That wasn't a criticism, by the way, just a cultural observation. I expect you have heard the expression "It'll take 3 good shots to get on in 2 today", when referring to a hole played into the wind.

No,I'd never heard that line before but you may now consider it stolen and will be used without attribution at the first chance I get.

Do you think that an Irishman who normally plays parkland courses would have the same issues with links courses?Just curious.

[Martin Toal]

That wasn't a criticism, by the way, just a cultural observation. I expect you have heard the expression "It'll take 3 good shots to get on in 2 today", when referring to a hole played into the wind.

No,I'd never heard that line before but you may now consider it stolen and will be used without attribution at the first chance I get.

Do you think that an Irishman who normally plays parkland courses would have the same issues with links courses?Just curious.

Maybe. I think a lot of today's younger players are higher ball hitters, much like many Americans. Some of the older wiser players used to more links play a lower ball flight and can hit punchier shots and may be affected less by playing links. Of course, at RCD, there are a few carries too, so you need some trajectory!

I used to play a lot of links, but haven't played much in recent years, so I might struggle a bit until I get the feel back.

[JMEvensky]

That wasn't a criticism, by the way, just a cultural observation. I expect you have heard the expression "It'll take 3 good shots to get on in 2 today", when referring to a hole played into the wind.

No,I'd never heard that line before but you may now consider it stolen and will be used without attribution at the first chance I get.

Do you think that an Irishman who normally plays parkland courses would have the same issues with links courses?Just curious.

Maybe. I think a lot of today's younger players are higher ball hitters, much like many Americans. Some of the older wiser players used to more links play a lower ball flight and can hit punchier shots and may be affected less by playing links. Of course, at RCD, there are a few carries too, so you need some trajectory!

I used to play a lot of links, but haven't played much in recent years, so I might struggle a bit until I get the feel back.

Probably like a lot of others,I was amazed when I first learned that all Irish (and Scottish) golfers didn't grow up playing links.Never dawned on me that there might be golf courses in the interior of the country  .

I hope that links' talent doesn't become a dying art-practiced only by a few old men.Unfortunately,the high-ball talent that the young guys now possess is catered to more and more as they move up.There's no reason for them to change what they see as the only proper way to hit a golf ball.

[Carl Johnson]

In response to Carl (above), I think it would be a huge shame if only 4 handicappers or better played RCD. I have never been, nor ever will be, a 4, but I love RCD and consider it one of the finest courses I have ever seen or played. Now, if you are a 22 handicapper, and have a chronic slice, you will need either a huge amount of patience or a bottomless bag of golf balls. A friend who is a good +1 played RCD in Open Week (off Championship tees) and shot a 74 in a 2 club wind. He said it was one of the best rounds he ever played, hitting 2 irons off tees and 4 irons in to the greens.

RCD is probably my favorite golf course.I love everything about it.BUT,a 22,or maybe even a 12,has to be borderline masochistic to play it.RCD is brutal.

Echoing your +1 friend,I played RCD the week before the Open and ran into 3 US Tour Pros--none of whom was playing from the back markers.One of them asked me why I was dumb enough to think that I could.He said that he'd played RCD over 20 times,thought it was the best course in the world,and thought it was the hardest course he'd ever played.

This is a guy who's won ~ 15 tournaments.

I wish I could play it every day.

I think that one difference between some local mid handicappers and overseas visitors is one of expectation. A 15 handicapper from a club in Northern Ireland would play RCD and be happy to get round without having to borrow golf balls and a score under 100.

I wonder if overseas players are more concerned about the score they shoot and get more distressed if they can't hit a par-4 in 2?

Martin: There are many difficulties for the American recreational player, as I see it.  Remember, this was the first time around RDC for all of us.  Despite being a very good golfer, our 0.7 says he has to visualize shots.  A caddy telling him to hit a full 7 over the top of a dune just doesn't work for him.  He'd do much better after playing the course a number of times and knowing "what was out there."  Same for me, from a different perspective.  If you tell me to hit my driver over the white rock, or just to the left of the white post, and I have no idea what's "over the hill," I have a lot of trouble making the same swing I would if I knew where I was likely to end up.  There are quite a number of blind and semi-blind shots required on the course.

So, a lot of the problem has to do with difficulty for first-timers, particularly those who've paid 150 pounds (or more for an early round), and are unlikely to see the course again.

Then there are the expectations, as others have pointed out.  In spite of the fact that we were playing a modified Stapleford competition, most of the guys liked to have a medal score, and were unhappy with high medal scores that would have been even higher if they're stuck to the rules on lost balls.  That's not a problem for me because if I'm past the points level for a hole, I pick up and tell the scorekeeper to give me an X and go on.  I don't pretend to have a medal score.  Not to mention the tight lies on bumpy, rolling fairways, deep bunkers, imposible rough, wind -- all of the things we go to Ireland and Scotland to experience and then grumble about when turns out to be really difficult.

Without a doubt RDC is a great course, and that is why I'd like to see the Open there -- but I don't believe it could happen.

On the subject of the "Troubles," which you say are over, how do you explain to a foreigner the recent Newtownards Road "riots" (a term used by one of your local papers to describe the situation), and the remaining Peace lines (fences), the murals that continue to be painted, I am told, the locked road gates at nights and on weekends, and the substantial police presense (albeit in the shadows) at the apparently family-friendly Tall Ships festival in Belfast last weekend, with armored police cars and truck based water cannons at ready.  Is it simply a serious gang violence situation?

By the way, here in my city of Charlotte, NC, USA, we had riots, apparently gang related, following a street festival (related to a NASCAR race) in our center city a month ago in which one man was shot and killed.  Our next big center city festival will be July 4, our Independence Day, and steps are supposedly being taken to try to keep things calm.  http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/06/30/2417710/city-acts-to-keep-july-4-peaceful.html. So, we're not imune to trouble here either.

[Tony_Muldoon]

On the subject of the "Troubles," which you say are over, how do you explain to a foreigner the recent Newtownards Road "riots" (a term used by one of your local papers to describe the situation), and the remaining Peace lines (fences), the murals that continue to be painted, I am told, the locked road gates at nights and on weekends, and the substantial police presense (albeit in the shadows) at the apparently family-friendly Tall Ships festival in Belfast last weekend, with armored police cars and truck based water cannons at ready.  Is it simply a serious gang violence situation?

 

Carl I appreciate you sharing all this and although I have cousins in NI and love the place dearly I’m not fully qualified to answer your question. I just wonder if you could imagine you only visited Portrush and Newcastle that week and didn’t open a newspaper would you have suspected anything?   I’ve been many, many times and to me the troubles even at their height always seemed very localised, but then my perspective is skewed and I’d like to hear your impression?



One think  that hasn’t been mentioned in this thread is the 12th of July.  The Open tends to be a few days after,but close enough.  I can’t see any direct attack on the Open but the 12th causes temperatures to run at their highest and as we have recently seen the Media loves trouble.  I feel the R&A would be very wary of this kind of publicity, even if the likely flashpoints are all some distance from the two courses discussed.  This may well be the elephant in this argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

[Sean_A]

The thing about "The Troubles" which scared me most was random aspect of many victims.  Growing up in a US city (Detroit) which during my youth had a much higher violent death rate than NI ever did at the heigh of TT, I still felt safer because I knew exactly where I could and could not be.  Going to NI the first time in 1987 was a huge eye opener.  We hitched into town on a lorrie and were wide eyed at what we saw.  We had an inclining of what was to come crossing the border at Dundalk.  There were guns from high positions above the road pointed at us and I felt very uneasy.  Still, Belfast was a different story.  Armoured vehicles were cruising the streets, public buildings had wire over them to deflect bombs, graffitti depicting armed terrorists was sprayed on walls.  Needless to say my mate Gary and I found a place to sleep and called it a night.  Looking back I am sure I was traumatized to a certain degree.  At the very least I was scared witless.  This was as close to a war zone as I ever wanted to experience. 

I met up with my Irish girlfriend a few days later who lived on hill above Enniskillen.  I was woken in the dead of night by an explosion tearing apart a shack at the bottom of the road.  My girlfriend calmed me down saying it happens all the time; "they blow it up and we rebuild it".  The town seemed okay, but for my girlfriend it was a completely different story.  She refused to enter some pubs because they were Catholic.  I also recall an incident while driving around with her when we came across a parked car in the middle of nowhere.  She stopped, looked around, could see no reason for the car being there and turned back to find another route to our destination.  She feared the car contained a bomb and could go off anytime.  Man, this was (and still is) a totally different world to me which I will never completely understand.  Of course, two months later the town centre was blasted on Poppy Day where 11 people were killed.  Going to the mass funeral after bringing my girlfriend back from Germany was about as terrified as I have ever been.  I couldn't believe the bravery of these people knowing they were easy targets for a second bombing.  My short, sharp, shocking ten days or so in NI changed me forever. 

I guess my point is that TT won't truly end until we are a few generations removed from the atrocities.  So its perfectly reasonable to me why the R&A wouldn't want to bring the Open to NI.

Ciao   

[Martin Toal]

On the subject of the "Troubles," which you say are over, how do you explain to a foreigner the recent Newtownards Road "riots" (a term used by one of your local papers to describe the situation), and the remaining Peace lines (fences), the murals that continue to be painted, I am told, the locked road gates at nights and on weekends, and the substantial police presense (albeit in the shadows) at the apparently family-friendly Tall Ships festival in Belfast last weekend, with armored police cars and truck based water cannons at ready.  Is it simply a serious gang violence situation?

Well, it is a complicated situation. Tensions may remain between communities for generations if not centuries. But for many people, these issues simply don't feature in their lives, and the residents of Portrush and Newcastle would be prominent among them. In all the years I lived in NI, I never had cause to cross a peace line. Most of the people who see these now are the people who live locally or those who get tourist cab rides to see them.

Anyone who grew up in NI in the 70s and 80s has seen violence at first hand and heard many explosions. As a hospital doctor during the late 80s and early 90s, I saw some of the effects even closer than many. But that was a different time to now.

In an era when the Queen visits Ireland, the Irish newspapers give free colour supplements of the Royal Wedding, rugby is played at the traditional home of Gaelic Games in Dublin and the reigning US Open Champion has Catholic parents but went to a (de facto) Protestant school just down the road from those recent riots, things have changed.

[Carl Johnson]

On the subject of the "Troubles," which you say are over, how do you explain to a foreigner the recent Newtownards Road "riots" (a term used by one of your local papers to describe the situation), and the remaining Peace lines (fences), the murals that continue to be painted, I am told, the locked road gates at nights and on weekends, and the substantial police presense (albeit in the shadows) at the apparently family-friendly Tall Ships festival in Belfast last weekend, with armored police cars and truck based water cannons at ready.  Is it simply a serious gang violence situation?

 

Carl I appreciate you sharing all this and although I have cousins in NI and love the place dearly I’m not fully qualified to answer your question. I just wonder if you could imagine you only visited Portrush and Newcastle that week and didn’t open a newspaper would you have suspected anything?   I’ve been many, many times and to me the troubles even at their height always seemed very localised, but then my perspective is skewed and I’d like to hear your impression? . . . .

Tony, to answer your question based on the assumptions you pose:  We were in and out of Newcastle, to RCD only, during daylight.  I noticed nothing unusual to suggest anything other than a typical, peaceful small town.  We spent four nights at the Ramada in Portrush, and I would say the same there.  It was just a nice, quiet, peaceful village with no apparent tension or strife.  The only thing about Portrush that surprised me were the steel garage door-type store front closures that were pulled down when the stores closed at night, something I was less surprised to see in Belfast.  I asked someone why this sort of protection was needed in Portrush.   His answer was that unless the stores were protected, someone would steal a car, ram it through the front of the store, and clean the store out.  I would (and actually do) attribute this to economic difficulties, not to any sort of religious or inter-community strife.  In short, I would have not have suspected anything.

Martin, thanks for the further explanation.

[Bill Gayne]

FWIW, excerpt from article in Irish Independent.

"Portrush hosted the British Open in 1951 but the prospects of the event ever returning to the Dunluce links, one of the finest on the planet, are negligible because of the sheer scale of the event. This was the expert opinion of David Hill, until recently the championship secretary of the R&A, who conducted a study of the viability of Royal Portrush as a venue for the British Open six years ago.

"It would be a fantastic venue, but only for about 15,000 people a day," Hill explained in 2009, when road and infrastructural changes permitted the return of the British Open to Turnberry on the remote west Scotland coast for the first time in 15 years.

Attendances at recent British Opens in St Andrews and Hoylake topped 200,000 for the week and exceeded 40,000 per day, nearly three times more than the Dunluce could accommodate in comfort and safety by Hills' reckoning.

Even the 123,000 spectators who attended the 2009 Open in Turnberry would push the envelope a tad too far at Portrush, where reduced gate receipts and increased staging costs would be inevitable consequences of a trip across the North Channel.

"There would have to be an amazing investment to consider taking it back to Ireland," added Hill. "The Seniors Open was at Portrush (in 2004) and with 6,000 people we were struggling. It's jammed with normal holiday-makers as it is." It should be pointed out that Hill is a native of Portrush."

[Mark Chaplin]

Peter Dawson on Radio 5 said earlier that Royal Portrush is on the radar and they are likely to have another look later this year. The BBC covering Clarke's return to Portrush are more cautious saying "neither the infrastructure, roads or hotel bedrooms, the fairytale isn't likely to happen anytime soon".

Who knows it could happen in the next 5-10 years.

[Adam Lawrence]

I was in Dawson's press conference last week and the Portrush issue was brought up by multiple reporters. My reading of his responses was that he didn't want to say it would never happen, but he certainly wasn't hinting at any real intention of going there. Naturally this was spun by various media into a 'Dawson says Portrush Open on the agenda' story, which imo wasn't what he said at all.

After DC's win, naturally it came up again, and the quote from this morning, that they would have another look, was, I felt, something more than he had said before. But I still can't see it. No-one doubts the course could cope with players and crowds, but where would people stay, and how would they get there? I think it inconceivable that the R&A will sign up to a 15,000 ticket per day Open.

For it to happen, there will have to be huge political will on the part of the Northern Ireland Executive to find some kind of creative solution to the accommodation and transport issues, imo. What that might be, short of massive investment in infrastructure - the sort that would be totally unjustifiable for a once in ten year event - I don't know.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think County down or Portrush would be great. The logistic issues cannot be any bigger at Portrush than Sandwich. I think it comes down to political stability nothing will come till that issue is risked much lower than now. Sean put that in terms anyone should be able to understand. The R&A will not put itself at risk.

[Niall C]

Adam

I wonder what the demographics are like for Portrush compared to say Castle Stuart. CS is stuck between the smallest city in Scotland and an average sized town with an awful lot of farmland round about and yet it got more punters through the gate in the first few days of the Scottish Open than Loch Lomond in the corresponding days the previous year. And thats Loch Lomond with the benefit of better weather and being located beside Scotlands largest city.

Is there really so little accommodation within an hours travel distance ?

Niall

[Bill Brightly]

I would absolutely love to see the pros play RCD, and I think Portrush would provide an incredibly stout test for their games. But as someone who lives in the US and has studied the Troubles from afar, I have to believe that bringing the "British" Open to Irish soil would simply inflame old emotions. I just can't see it being a positive, but I would love to be proven wrong.

Would anyone like to take a stab at answering this question? What if RCD and Royal Portrush were added to the Irish Open Rota and the USGA and R & A supported it as a 5th major? Could such an event be viewed as a signing of healing? Might the Irish Open name satisfy many who might strongly oppose the "British" Open?

[Martin Toal]

Bill

There is talk of bring an Irish Open to RP first.

On the subject of Irish/British soil, the abbreviated version of what could be a more complicated answer is to say that you can consider NI, and hence RP and RCD, as both Irish and British, so The Open Championship can, and did already in 1951, go to either of those courses.

[Mark Pearce]

Bill,

If what you're worried about is that it's the "British" Open, I wouldn't worry.  No-one here calls it that, nor is it's official title.

[Adam Lawrence]

I would put good money on the Irish Open being at Portrush in the next couple of years. Given the problems they have had finding a sponsor, it makes perfect sense - with GM, RM and DC in the field it would attract huge coverage and be a much better sponsorship proposition than any other potential venue.

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill - I believe it's known as the British Open in the USA, as Mark says it's the Open Championship

[JMEvensky]

There is talk of bring an Irish Open to RP first.

 

As a test run for an Open Championship?

Assuming the R&A's only problems with RP or RCD are logistical (a very large assumption),wouldn't 10 years' worth of lead time be enough to build the necessary infrastructure? If the R&A went to the NI government and said "we'll bring the Open if you build the roads,etc.",what would the government say?

I half expected DC to say something about it  to Peter Dawson at the trophy ceremony.

[jeffwarne]

By chance I was in Portrush during the two nights of troubles in Belfast early last week, and then arrived in Belfast on June 25 for a four day stay.  I arrived home late last night and am still on Belfast time.  In Belfast we had a nice hotel in the university area.  (Golf, of course, about which more later, was the reason for the trip.)


Among other courses, we played both Portrush Dunluce and the championship course at RCD.  Our group of eight 62- to 70-year-old seniors included a wide range of handicaps, from a top senior golfer in N.C., who is a 0.7 index, to me, with a 20.6 index.  The 0.7 played as far back at Portrush as they allowed him, which was not all the way back, and finished a legitimate one over under benign conditions.  Even I could play Portrush from a more forward set of tees.

At RCD, also under benign conditions, the 0.7 "shot an 83" that was not legit.  They did allow him to play from the so-called "championship tees."  I'd say that if he played it by the book, the 0.7 would probably have finished in the low 90's.  (All of our competitions were modified Staplefords, with generous allowances for lost balls.)  For me the RCD course was not playable, except for later in the round, at 15 I think it was, where the fairway was wide off the tee and you could actually see it.  Clearly, someone made a mistake there.  Our consensus was that if you are not a four handicapper or better, don't waste your money at RCD.  (For us humans they ought to figure out how to make some money just offering walking tours of the course with knowledgeable guides.)

 

Why would a senior golfer on his way to a low 90's round in benign conditions even THINK to play the Championship tees (and continue to once it became clear he couldn't handle it)

[Sean Leary]

I know people don't think much of 18 at Royal Portrush, but doesn't it LOOK like an 18th hole for the Open Championship? I can just picture the stands up on both sides surrounding the green down the fairway.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill - I believe it's known as the British Open in the USA, as Mark says it's the Open Championship

I know it is called the Open championship. My question is how might it be perceived in Ireland.

[Mark Pearce]

Bill - I believe it's known as the British Open in the USA, as Mark says it's the Open Championship

I know it is called the Open championship. My question is how might it be perceived in Ireland.

As the Open Championship?