[George Freeman]

Mike:

I could see how a grass parking lot might put off Mr. Kavanaugh...

The parking lot at Crystal Downs is grass??  I completely missed that.  Funny what you pay attention to (and what you don't pay attention to) in certain circumstances...

[Mike H]

Ken

When playing Forest Dunes this morning I did not feel that the course was overly watered.  The fairways were firm and the ball was bouncing quite a bit.  

[Bill_McBride]

Mike:

I could see how a grass parking lot might put off Mr. Kavanaugh...

The parking lot at Crystal Downs is grass??  I completely missed that.  Funny what you pay attention to (and what you don't pay attention to) in certain circumstances...

I think that was the lower lot, down between the first and third tees.   Charming. 

[Mac Plumart]

Mike...

You know what we be cool, and is kind of in line with what Sheldon said...next time you are going to play a new course,

1)  write down your notes and thoughts on what you are expecting prior to playing it

2)  take good notes on how you feel about it right after the round...what you liked, what you disliked, cool features, turn-offs, etc

3)  then a few days later compare your pre-round notes and thoughts to your immediately drafted post round notes.

4)  See if you were close on the pre-round ntoes, did you have any change of heart on the post-round notes, things like that

5)  Finally, see if you learned anything about yourself, likes and dislkes relative to gca...see if you learned anything about GCA and your taste.  Did you like a specific hole, a routing idea, a green complex, a "feel"

I like to do this on golf courses I play...I think it is fun and helps me learn about golf course architecture and myself.

Just a thought...sounds like a great trip!!

[Jay Flemma]

You'll love Crystal Downs and Arcadia, you'll like Forest Dunes's back nine a great deal - that's my guess...

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike...

You know what we be cool, and is kind of in line with what Sheldon said...next time you are going to play a new course,

1)  write down your notes and thoughts on what you are expecting prior to playing it

2)  take good notes on how you feel about it right after the round...what you liked, what you disliked, cool features, turn-offs, etc

3)  then a few days later compare your pre-round notes and thoughts to your immediately drafted post round notes.

4)  See if you were close on the pre-round ntoes, did you have any change of heart on the post-round notes, things like that

5)  Finally, see if you learned anything about yourself, likes and dislkes relative to gca...see if you learned anything about GCA and your taste.  Did you like a specific hole, a routing idea, a green complex, a "feel"

I like to do this on golf courses I play...I think it is fun and helps me learn about golf course architecture and myself.

Just a thought...sounds like a great trip!!

Or don't.  I like how you went six holes deep on one of the best regarded courses in the country before you decided if you wanted to get in your car and leave for another course where you didn't even have a tee time. You are my hero if you told the assistant to give you a chance to play a few before you would let him know if he should call Kingsley or not. Guys with a set like that don't take notes.

[Mac Plumart]

Mike...

You know what we be cool, and is kind of in line with what Sheldon said...next time you are going to play a new course,

1)  write down your notes and thoughts on what you are expecting prior to playing it

2)  take good notes on how you feel about it right after the round...what you liked, what you disliked, cool features, turn-offs, etc

3)  then a few days later compare your pre-round notes and thoughts to your immediately drafted post round notes.

4)  See if you were close on the pre-round ntoes, did you have any change of heart on the post-round notes, things like that

5)  Finally, see if you learned anything about yourself, likes and dislkes relative to gca...see if you learned anything about GCA and your taste.  Did you like a specific hole, a routing idea, a green complex, a "feel"

I like to do this on golf courses I play...I think it is fun and helps me learn about golf course architecture and myself.

Just a thought...sounds like a great trip!!

Or don't.  I like how you went six holes deep on one of the best regarded courses in the country before you decided if you wanted to get in your car and leave for another course where you didn't even have a tee time. You are my hero if you told the assistant to give you a chance to play a few before you would let him know if he should call Kingsley or not. Guys with a set like that don't take notes.

Notes?  We don't need no stinkin' notes!!!

[Mike H]

John

I am not sure why you have to come back with a negative response because I wanted to assess the golf course for myself before making a decision on where I wanted to play.  Unfortunately I am not able to travel a lot because of work and when I do make these kind of vacations I want to have as much fun as I possibly can especially considering the trip came together on last Thursday I think it turned out amazing.  I have also played some highly regarded courses that I don't mind if I ever play again.  That is the great thing about forums similar to this is people get to express with others what they like and dislike about these great courses.  In your case you get to discuss what you dislike about my decision process on playing a round of golf. 

[Tom_Doak]

Parking lots are 0% of the Doak score for any course ... but as parking lots go, I think Crystal Downs' are hard to beat.  The grass lot down by the third tee is the back-up option.  There is a lot for about 20 cars up by the clubhouse and pro shop, with a little footbridge from the parking lot across the entrance road (narrow 2 lanes twelve feet below) to the pro shop.  If you play in the spring and fall, there's probably room in the upper lot, and going across that footbridge is for me about as cool as going over the old bridge on the 18th at St. Andrews.

But, as you can tell, I love the place.  The Kingsley Club is cool, but an evening round at Crystal Downs on a nice day like yesterday is hard to beat.

P.S.  Guard shacks are a sign of snootiness ... there is a list of Courses With Locked Gates in the back of The Confidential Guide, and it was meant as a Hall of Shame.  In the evenings, Crystal Downs does shut the rear gate, and an old guy in a pickup truck sits at the front gate to make sure nobody is coming in to rob a house or something.  I've never actually seen him stop anyone in 25 years, though.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

In my own strange way I was complimenting you.  Obviously you did not go to Crystal Downs completely in the dark.  You joined this site and started this thread. To then still need to see and play the architecture yourself on Tom Doak's home course before knowing if it is worthy of a second 18 late in the afternoon is refreshing.  Like I said above, you are my hero. Your story is Aesopian.

[Jim Colton]

Mike,

If I recall correctly, aren't you one of these guys on a mission to play all the Golf Digest top 100s? If Kingsley were in the latest list, would you have made a different decision regarding the second 18 at CD?

[JC Jones]

Forest Dunes is very green but in no way shape or form is it "lush" or soft.  Don't let appearances fool you.  The course is one of the fastest in northern Michigan and in my experience plays as fast as CD on the greens and significantly more firm from tee to green.

The super there is one of the best I have come across and does a VERY good job of balancing the firm and fast with the demands of his owner/membership.  If asked to take over a course like Kingsley I think he would have no problem continuing the playing characteristics that make Kingsley so great.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

If I recall correctly, aren't you one of these guys on a mission to play all the Golf Digest top 100s? If Kingsley were in the latest list, would you have made a different decision regarding the second 18 at CD?

That is not a fair question.  I had no idea that Arcadia and Forrest Dunes were top 100 courses.  I'm done with heroes.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

On an inaugural trip to the region I would have definitely found time for both Kingsley and Crystal Downs.  On a return trip I would stay at Crystal Downs until they kicked me out and skip Kingsley all together, but someone else might think just the opposite.

[John Kavanaugh]

On an inaugural trip to the region I would have definitely found time for both Kingsley and Crystal Downs.  On a return trip I would stay at Crystal Downs until they kicked me out and skip Kingsley all together, but someone else might think just the opposite.

Really, you would tee off at Crystal Downs at noon, rush through the round and jump in your car for an hour drive to catch Kingsley for 18 more holes.  All this when you have the opportunity to have Crystal at your disposal until dark.  To me this sounds like no more than a sinful abuse of power.

[JC Jones]

On an inaugural trip to the region I would have definitely found time for both Kingsley and Crystal Downs.  On a return trip I would stay at Crystal Downs until they kicked me out and skip Kingsley all together, but someone else might think just the opposite.

Kyle,

I assume you mean that you would not skip a second round at Crystal Downs for a round at Kingsley Club.  I don't think many people have an issue with that.  The issue seems to be skipping a round at Kingsley Club for a round at either Forest Dunes or Arcadia Bluffs.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

On an inaugural trip to the region I would have definitely found time for both Kingsley and Crystal Downs.  On a return trip I would stay at Crystal Downs until they kicked me out and skip Kingsley all together, but someone else might think just the opposite.

Really, you would tee off at Crystal Downs at noon, rush through the round and jump in your car for an hour drive to catch Kingsley for 18 more holes.  All this when you have the opportunity to have Crystal at your disposal until dark.  To me this sounds like no more than a sinful abuse of power.

John,

If I was only going to be able to take one trip up there I would try to see them both (tee off at one early, make the drive, and then play the other).  Having already played both of them and based on my experiences, on a return trip I would go to Crystal Downs and play golf until I was forced to leave without even considering stopping elsewhere.  I think CD is that much better, but I can understand that anothers personal preferences would differ.

[John Kavanaugh]

In fairness to Mike the noon tee time made in impossible to play Kingsley in the morning.  Kingsley is a private club and deserves more respect than a 2 hour hit and run.  I do find it odd how this group tosses the notion of privacy out the window.  Damn it makes paying dues tough.

The other real world issue is that Arcadia and Forrest Dunes are top 100 courses.  If that is his gig let him enjoy it.

[Mike H]

Jim

You are right that I would like to play all the top 100 courses I can for for more reasons than just to play them.  1.  Majority of the courses are very good courses and better than average.  2.  It is a reason to get away and take a little vacation (1 or 2 times a year) to areas of the country I normally would not visit.  3.  I am doing this with my best friend/old college roommate who lives 3.5 hours away and it is a reason for us to get together and do something we love to do.  More than anything its to play a good golf course a couple times a year with great people.  I am 30 and realize I will more than likely not be able to play all top 100 but its a lot of fun to do and have met a lot of great people along the way.  It is also a lot of fun to be able to have the memories of the trips and shots we hit or things that happened along the way.  If we were not doing this I am not sure I would have made a trip to northern Michigan to play golf and stayed around Dayton, OH and played golf and never have experienced the great courses I played in the last week.  I have learned a lot about what I like as far as golf courses go.  In the past few years I have been doing this I have realized I thought I only liked tree lined golf courses but that has been thrown out the window and find that what I like evolves with every course I play.  Finding out information about courses like Kingsley is one of the reason I joined this site.  Often a way to learn about golf courses is through any kind of golf ranking or tournaments they host.  The great thing about this site is regardless if I play Kingsley or not, I now know about the course and next time I am in the area fully plan on playing there regardless of its ranking.  Often times when we make these trips we are always looking for other courses to play that are not ranked and I value peoples opinion on this site.

[Jud_T]

Nothing wrong with notching bedposts, if your into that sort of thing, just make sure you're notching the right post...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html

[Mike H]

Tom

I agree that a guard shack is a sign of snootiness and feel there was zero snootiness at Crystal Downs at all and is one of the reasons why I fell in love with the place.  Everyone made us feel as if we were members which is unlike some courses I have played.  Brian went out of his way to make us feel welcome.  We also had the chance to talk to some of the members and they were more than appreciative to have us at your club.  All around it was the best experience I have had on a golf course, except for possibly breaking a finger on a shot lol It is an amazing place and if given the opportunity to play again will never pass this up.  

[Jim Colton]

Mike,

  More power to you on your top 100 journey. All the reasons you listed are perfectly valid. It would be strange to be on this site and naturally not want to see/play as many great courses as you possibly can in one lifetime. I do caution against valuing the belt notching over the other reasons you mentioned. Like you said, you probably aren't going to play them all. At the very beginning of this thread, you posted your itinerary and folks immediately told you to bag Arcadia or Forest Dunes for Kingsley (I'd agree with them). But I wonder if your decision to keep it as-is had more to do with the fact that Arcadia and Forest Dunes are on the GD100 and Kingsley isn't. Not being critical, just wondering what the mindset was when deciding which 3 courses to play (a common dilemma for many a buddy trip).

[Mike H]

Jim

The reason for the 3 courses initially was because they were ranked in the top 100.  This trip came together very last minute late last week.  I was able to find a hole in my work schedule for Monday-Wed and we decided to make the trip up not expecting to play Crystal Downs it was going to be a Mon-Tuesday trip. I posted this thread shortly after confirming the tee time at CD and making them online at Arcadia and Forest Dunes.  Unfortunately we were not able to change tee times at Arcadia and Forest Dunes since they were made online and there was no way I was going to call CD and press my luck to get out at a different time.  For a spur of the moment trip I cant complain but if I had more than 4 days to plan the trip I would have included Kingsley based on the feedback I have received on here.  I will know for my next trip in the region.

[Mark Johnson]

Arcadia is a very nice course with great views and tons of interesting holes.   Challenge though is that it requires a TON of local knowledge.  Almost everyone i know shoots 5-7 shots lower the 2nd or 3 rd time they play it

[Jim Eder]

Mike,

I loved your statement that CD is the toughest 6600yd course. So true!!  It plays longer and shows (at least to me) that yardage isn't everything. Wonderful golf course!! Glad you got to enjoy a special place.

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