[Jim Franklin]

But its ok to write it off as great when humming?  Nobody said it was too soft. What was said and evperienced was a stickiness. This stickiness even made one player, who normally would putt the ball from any and all coillars, to use their lob wedge. I'd say that's a significant difference in playability which could easily alter perceptions.

That certainly could alter perceptions, but I am glad it was firm and fast when I played it. I did not notice any rocks getting in my way when I played either except right of #10 when I went for it in two and pushed it a little.

A little?  You were so far down in the gunch/gulch on the right... Andy and I wondered if you were lost/abducted/ate by a cow, etc.    

I found the ball, had a shot, and believe I made par to beat you again. Check your card.

[DMoriarty]

But its ok to write it off as great when humming?  Nobody said it was too soft. What was said and evperienced was a stickiness. This stickiness even made one player, who normally would putt the ball from any and all coillars, to use their lob wedge. I'd say that's a significant difference in playability which could easily alter perceptions.

Neither approach is ideal, but there may a bit more logic to assessing a course when it is playing closer to how it was meant to play and/or how it usually plays, rather than during an unusually wet period in a usually dry setting, because the course probably isn't going to be playing as it will when things return to normal and dry out a bit.  And as I said above, it has been a few years, but I have been over the course at different times (including early in the summer not too long after there had been a late snow on the ground) and in different conditions and while the degree to which it was firm and fast varied significantly, it was by no "sticky."

If anything, this thread is further indictment of this notion that we can draw reasonable conclusions about overall course quality when we flit in for a quick visit. This is especially so given how difficult it apparently is to see past the impact of the immediate conditions on one's game to underlying merits of a course.

[Adam Clayman]

David, You are either assuming too much, or mis-reading comments. No one said it was soft. The stickiness is a result of a concerted effort to have the course play softer. The aeration holes were throughout, and the length of the collars, was long enough to allow lob wedges from 14 handicappers. Yes, Montana has had a very wet spring, but, as I approached from the east, the difference was easily detectable. Deer Lodge has not received the same amounts of moisture that the eastern part has. The ball was still bouncing off higher ground with low trajectory shots. However, the roll out was significantly reduced by the length of those collars (The stickiness). i.e # 4 a low struck shot played up the left side, would fail to roll out of the higher collar, green high. That left side reminded me of BN's #7 but, played nothing like it, due the concerted effort to have the course play more like every other course in the country, firmness wise.

If anything, this thread is further indictment of this notion that we can draw reasonable conclusions about overall course quality when we flit in for a quick visit. This is especially so given how difficult it apparently is to see past the impact of the immediate conditions on one's game to underlying merits of a course.

That's ridiculous, in my case. I see past maintenance issues and understand my exposure is only but one frame in the life of the course. If there is one re-ocurring motif at RC it is that many greens have steep false fronts and are raised up above the fairway level. That steepness only exacerbates the inability to play any shot, conceivable, resulting in aerial assault, as the only prudent play. If there's a conscience effort to make the place play softer, I don't see how this thread could be an indictment on people's opinion of how the course currently, and going forward, plays. If this thread highlights anything, it's the importance of the maintenance meld. When one element is not firing on all cylinders, the whole Fun Factor is diminished.

[Tony Weiler]

Adam, reading your words (and listening to you at RC) is like learing from a professor of golf course architecture, if there is such a thing.  Our next trip cannot come soon enough for me. 

[Mac Plumart]

If this thread highlights anything, it's the importance of the maintenance meld

KABOOM!!!  That is it.  I hear stories of Rock Creek playing VERY FAST AND FIRM and I get really pumped.  And I mean really pumped.  That would be so awesome.  But when I was there is was wet, so that was a bit of a bummer.  But like Adam said, I think most of us can see beyond that.  And he nailed it on the current maintenance of the course.  Now from my standpoint (one of ignorance on standard operating procedure on Montana courses coming out of winter/spring), I don't know if that is simply a by-product of the weather or a change due to member desires.  But from previous posts, it seems like the members have requested these changes.

Regardless, the maintenance meld is what is the highlight of this thread for me.

[Jim Franklin]

I heard members requested the greens to be softened too. I know Tom has heard this and it would be unfortunate to change them. I think the wetness is in relation to softening the course so as to not change the greens. That is a shame because as firm/fast course, it is on another level.

[Tom_Doak]

I heard members requested the greens to be softened too. I know Tom has heard this and it would be unfortunate to change them. I think the wetness is in relation to softening the course so as to not change the greens. That is a shame because as firm/fast course, it is on another level.

Jim:

I was out there last summer and spent time with both the superintendent and the client, in addition to playing with a couple of the members.  We did make a couple of small tweaks [on #4 green and #9], and they were happy with those changes, and thought nothing more needed to be done.  That's the latest as far as I've heard, and I was pretty adamant that if they wanted to make further changes they should speak up while I was there to discuss it.

As to fast and firm, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  I prefer the course a bit tighter than they are maintaining it right now, but that's okay with me, as opposed to changing greens and the like.  Indeed, they are just following the advice I give to consulting clients when they think the greens ought to be changed -- just slow them down a little bit and you're good to go!

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

I LOVE that last sentence.  I wonder if my feeling that Rock Creek had the best set of greens of yours that I've played has a direct linkage to their speed (maybe 9 on the stimp meter).  I thought that was perfect and highlighted how great the greens were without silly amounts of speed.

[Craig Sweet]

Regarding playing conditions at Rock Creek...I have lived here in Montana for nearly 30 years and when it comes to moisture it is either feast or famine...summer time brings temps. in the 90's and 100's...and it brings frost and sometimes snow...but when it is hot, and the wind is blowing and the humidity is somewhere less than 10% everything dries out...so...we irrigate like mad. On our little 18 hole course in Missoula, we dump over 600,000 gallons of water every night from late July thru August simply to keep everything from totally burning up. I know Tom D has mentioned here a few times the challenges they had at Rock Creek with wind drying out greens...Yeah, sometimes we irrigate all night and get hit with a gully washer of a thunderstorm after mid night....the next day the course might be much wetter than normal...that's life....and that's golf...you get what you get...just ask Rory!

This spring has been very wet through out ALL of Montana. And cold...I can not speak for Rock Creek, but the courses around here resemble hay fields...the grass pollen is exploding, and we have not irrigated hardly at all...slow and soft is pretty much what we have to live with for awhile...

[DMoriarty]

Craig Sweet,  It is nice to have a report from someone who has spent more than a few days in the state this spring.
___________________________________

Adam,

First, I am not sure your drive to the course qualifies you as an expert on the weather conditions in the Montana. Eastern Montana has received plenty of rain and the brunt of the major flooding, but from what I have been told by friends and relatives who actually live there, Craig has it right above. It has been a cold and wet spring throughout much of the state. Creeks and rivers flooding, seeding schedules were thrown off, and and everything (including the golf courses) is saturated.  As for SW Montana and Deer Lodge in particular, see the article above.  

Here is a report on the conditions in Deer Lodge earlier this month . . .
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/flooding_roundup_rain_runoff_pummel_rockies/C41/L41/

Second, let me clarify a few things: It sounds like the conditions weren't anywhere near ideal when you played; and, I realize the course intentionally moved away from the extreme conditions of a few years ago.  But you see causation here and view the change in policy as directly responsible for the playing conditions last week.  Given recent weather conditions, I don't understand how you could have come to that conclusion.  

Precipitation, humidity, and temperature impact playing conditions, and the area has gone through an extended period of unusually high precipitation and humidity, and unusually low temperatures.   So how can you guys know that what you experienced was a result of a "concerted effort" as opposed to an unusually cold and wet period?

You think they backed off too far from the extreme of a couple of years ago, and it is possible.  But if you've only been there once, and it was this month, then I doubt you have enough information to draw this conclusion.

Third, as to your glowing self-assessment of your ability to place your visit in the proper context in the life of a course, I've never met a rater who thought differently, and I have my doubts as to whether raters are in the best position to make such self-assessments.   Isn't it possible that at least some of the negatives you experienced were exacerbated by the unusual weather conditions?

[Craig Sweet]

One more reply...regarding "stickiness"...I mowed fairways yesterday and today...we mow nine holes each day so what I mowed today, was mowed Saturday...I was pushing a lot of grass...did quite a bit of baling. These fairways were Primo'd maybe two weeks ago? This is the most unusual "summer" I have ever seen! Today I wore my long underwear and rain gear...in fact, that has been the normal attire all spring and summer long...except for the days when I needed to wear a winter coat while mowing fairways!

The boys at Rock Creek are no doubt facing the same conditions we are..though they will sometimes get snow in May and June when we get rain.

[Adam Clayman]

Craig Sweet,  It is nice to have a report from someone who has spent more than a few days in the state this spring.
___________________________________

Adam,

First, I am not sure your drive to the course qualifies you as an expert on the weather conditions in the Montana. Eastern Montana has received plenty of rain and the brunt of the major flooding, but from what I have been told by friends and relatives who actually live there, Craig has it right above. It has been a cold and wet spring throughout much of the state. Creeks and rivers flooding, seeding schedules were thrown off, and and everything (including the golf courses) is saturated.  As for SW Montana and Deer Lodge in particular, see the article above.  

Here is a report on the conditions in Deer Lodge earlier this month . . .
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/flooding_roundup_rain_runoff_pummel_rockies/C41/L41/

Second, let me clarify a few things: It sounds like the conditions weren't anywhere near ideal when you played; and, I realize the course intentionally moved away from the extreme conditions of a few years ago.  But you see causation here and view the change in policy as directly responsible for the playing conditions last week.  Given recent weather conditions, I don't understand how you could have come to that conclusion.  

Precipitation, humidity, and temperature impact playing conditions, and the area has gone through an extended period of unusually high precipitation and humidity, and unusually low temperatures.   So how can you guys know that what you experienced was a result of a "concerted effort" as opposed to an unusually cold and wet period?

You think they backed off too far from the extreme of a couple of years ago, and it is possible.  But if you've only been there once, and it was this month, then I doubt you have enough information to draw this conclusion.

Third, as to your glowing self-assessment of your ability to place your visit in the proper context in the life of a course, I've never met a rater who thought differently, and I have my doubts as to whether raters are in the best position to make such self-assessments.   Isn't it possible that at least some of the negatives you experienced were exacerbated by the unusual weather conditions?

The only areas that were wet were the extreme low areas, and that was only the first day. By the second, the low areas were dry as a bone, as were all the elevated areas, both days. So, No. my assessment of conditions were not a result of the rains that the state has received this spring. As a matter of fact, the turf was still coming out of winter and should have played thinner than it did. The causation for the stickiness was the the result of the height of cut and the choice of grass. 

As for reading abilities, the difference in color and texture of the grasslands was what led me to believe that the Deer Lodge area had seen less rain in the preceding days to our visit. That, and a comment made by one of the staff about the recent pattern.

Why don't you leave the hyperbole at the door? My "Glowing assessment" was not glowing, it's a fact. I could care less if the fairways were dirt. The architecture is what matters. You sure must ask raters a lot of questions, if you've heard that remark from every one you ever met.

[ward peyronnin]

Mac

Thanks for your insightful , diplomatic  and reasoned observations.

RCCC is indeed a BR
Beautiful gc, great routing and contains interesting elements but i don not find them to combine to produce an harmonious effect such as a classic great golf course does

I would like to know why it is a blast to play when:

Putts veer of course for no visible reason

Th

Many holes request running shots but the green surround don't favor them.....  2,4,6,11,14,16, and even maybe 18

Green approaches are fronted by convex Swales  

And if conditions are known to be so variable and have such an impact why isn't the design such that is is playable as called for in those differing conditions? It is hard to run a ball thru a soft convex swale; hard to pinch a shot off short spongy turf. T greens that fall away

I enjoyed the course and it is memorable. i just am not on Board with the uncritical acclaim faction

[DMoriarty]

Adam,

So then I guess your answer is, No, It is not possible that at least some of the negatives you experienced were exacerbated by the unusual weather conditions.

Rock Creek must be the only outdoor place on earth where turf conditions are entirely controlled by the maintenance practices, and the weather has nothing to do with it.  

As for your comments on the types of greens suitable for run-up shots, I disagree.  Since when do we need level ramp-like entrances for the ground game?   Is the Valley of Sin bad for the ground game?  How about the swale in front of biarritz greens?  

Deer Lodge earlier this month . . .

[Adam Clayman]

David, Forgive me if I don't take the word of a Socal boy on weather. Let alone someone who has not been there for a few years. But since you've been there more than once, your opinion of the current state of the gc, trumps all of us who were there last week.

[Craig Sweet]

Adam...I am saying the conditions you found at RC you are likely to find on every golf course in Montana this Spring...given the weather conditions grass is growing in abundance....maintenance crews are barely...and often not...able to keep up.  We raised the HOC on our fairways from .400 to .450 and immediately saw a poa seed head explosion and very shaggy fairways...that HOC lasted less than a week and we are now back to .400.  You can argue that the shaggy fairways were due to a maintenance decisions, but in reality during a normal summer that change in HOC would have hardly be noticed.

[Jim Franklin]

I heard members requested the greens to be softened too. I know Tom has heard this and it would be unfortunate to change them. I think the wetness is in relation to softening the course so as to not change the greens. That is a shame because as firm/fast course, it is on another level.

Jim:

I was out there last summer and spent time with both the superintendent and the client, in addition to playing with a couple of the members.  We did make a couple of small tweaks [on #4 green and #9], and they were happy with those changes, and thought nothing more needed to be done.  That's the latest as far as I've heard, and I was pretty adamant that if they wanted to make further changes they should speak up while I was there to discuss it.

As to fast and firm, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  I prefer the course a bit tighter than they are maintaining it right now, but that's okay with me, as opposed to changing greens and the like.  Indeed, they are just following the advice I give to consulting clients when they think the greens ought to be changed -- just slow them down a little bit and you're good to go!

I am glad to hear they are not changing the greens except for a couple of small tweaks.

[Garland Bayley]

David, Forgive me if I don't take the word of a Socal boy on weather. Let alone someone who has not been there for a few years. But since you've been there more than once, your opinion of the current state of the gc, trumps all of us who were there last week.

Adam, Forgive the Montana boys (Me, David, Craig) if we don't take your word on weather. And forgive us if we don't attribute the current state of the gc, on the same thing you do.

[Adam Clayman]

The gc was presented the way they wanted it. For crying out loud. One of golf's most beloved photographers was scheduled to be there. The ground was firm.

[Kalen Braley]

The entire region has indeed been hammered with a lot of moisture this spring.

Spokane is only 1.5 hrs west of Montana and when I check in on the radar a few times per week, Western Montana has always been hit harder than we have here in Spokane.

As a reference point, its now June 21st and I've yet to turn my sprinklers on this year...that's how much moisture we've been getting here. 

[Adam Clayman]

Here's my last comment on the amount of rain the vicinity of RCCC had had prior to our visit;

One the way up the hill, and just prior to getting off the Interstate, WHY would a couple of pivots be going?

If you don't know what a pivot is, it is the circular (mostly) irrigation system used to water fields.

 Here, in my farm community, it costs between $1000 and $1500 in energy costs to go around a field, once. I admittedly don't know what it costs in Montana.

So, all your RCCC micro climate experts, can you explain why a rancher would be watering his fields, if there was so much rain?

[Cristian]

The course looks absolutely wonderful. It actually sometimes reminds me (in the pics, I haven't been there) of the old photographs of Pasatiempo (without the housing) posted on this site.

The discussion on firmness is interesting. I keep going back to hole 7, because it looks so interesting to play, but I do wonder if one could bounce a low shot down the hill via the slope on the right or left (depending on pin position) most of the year.

How much influence would the wind have on this course? As a european I am not in the know on the local climate (micro or otherwise). More wind would invite more running shots, requiring f&f more as well, I guess.

[Garland Bayley]

...
One the way up the hill, and just prior to getting off the Interstate, WHY would a couple of pivots be going?
...
So, all your RCCC micro climate experts, can you explain why a rancher would be watering his fields, if there was so much rain?

To increase the hay crop. Do they grow hay in your area to feed large herds of cattle over the winter? It is ranch country after all.

Every spring the ranchers irrigate their hay crops. They don't take rain data to decide whether to do it or not. You can take that bit of information from a former ranch haying crew member.

[Kalen Braley]

Here's my last comment on the amount of rain the vicinity of RCCC had had prior to our visit;

One the way up the hill, and just prior to getting off the Interstate, WHY would a couple of pivots be going?

If you don't know what a pivot is, it is the circular (mostly) irrigation system used to water fields.

 Here, in my farm community, it costs between $1000 and $1500 in energy costs to go around a field, once. I admittedly don't know what it costs in Montana.

So, all your RCCC micro climate experts, can you explain why a rancher would be watering his fields, if there was so much rain?

Adam,

You'd have to ask them....people do dumb things all the time! 

P.S. I drove thru that area 3 weeks ago enroute to Cody, Wy and we debated going right up to the last minute based on all the road closures due to flooding.  Every river, stream, creek we passed was bulging at its seams and we saw multiple stands of sand bag walls.

[DMoriarty]

David, Forgive me if I don't take the word of a Socal boy on weather. Let alone someone who has not been there for a few years. But since you've been there more than once, your opinion of the current state of the gc, trumps all of us who were there last week.

I don't doubt you on the conditions you saw last week.  I just question your insistence that this limited exposure qualifies you to make pronouncements about the conditions of the course long term.  You have someone who maintains courses for a living telling you that the conditions you saw were widespread and likely a product of an unusually cold and wet spring, yet you insist that this was not the case.    I just don't get that.

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