Is this a Bottle Hole

[Bryan Izatt]

Does this hole embody the principles of a Bottle Hole?  It is a very recent course.  It is on a flat piece of ground and consequently it is difficult to gauge the location and distance of the bunkers and find a line off the tee.  I assume that would be clarified by multiple plays.

[Mark McKeever]

Im not sure why you would want to play down the left?

Mark

[John Kirk]

Comment #1:

The green is oriented to encourage shots from the wide portion of the fairway.

Comment #2:

The narrow portion of the fairway looks too narrow to attempt a play there.

Comment #3:

But if it isn't too narrow, then this works only if the green tilts from back right down.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

How long is the hole?

[michael damico]

funny this is mentioned. I work right next to a 'resort' course and view this uphill par 4 as I enter every morning. I was telling my buddy that it looks to be a solid hole and would place one bunker on the hole...which I then went on to say that one placed greenside would be nice, but essentially place emphasis on the drive's placement. Instead, I suggested a small bunker slightly off center in the fairway would be better as long as the slimmer side of the fairway was the preferred line into the green.

There is not only an unnecessary amount of bunkers on this hole, but it seems the comments from both John and Mark are spot on, without answering if this is a bottle hole or not.

I would not classify this as a Bottle, but more of a two option, almost multiple fairway type hole. It would be nice to know the orientation of the green complex, but I too see the same as the comments mentioned before; as well as the length of the hole.

[Sean Leary]

Im not sure why you would want to play down the left?

Mark

+1

[Bruce_Dixon]

I agree.  Without knowing the green slope, the left fairway certainly doesn't look like much of a temptation given it's narrowness and green orientation.

[Alex Miller]

Here's my best effort (still poor) at fixing the strategy of the hole even though I don't actually know how long it is. You can lay back off the tee down the left side but leave yourself with a poor angle in. The other options are to fly the center bunkers down the left side (a longer carry) to the widest portion of fairway that has an ok look at the green but is still better because you've got a shorter club in hand. The last option is to challenge the bunkers down the right, with the last bunker protecting the ideal line of play. The closer one can put it to that bunker, the better the look into the green.

[michael damico]

not too shabby, hasty Photoshop work and explanation to boot...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bryan,
The "Original", just roll the cursor over the holes to find #12.

http://wikimapia.org/4278681/12th-Hole-Sunningdale-Golf-Club-Old-Course

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,  They bottleneck concept is pretty simple.   The longer one hits it on the preferred line, the more accurate one must be.  So arguably any golf hole which requires increased accuracy as the length of the shot is a "Bottle Hole."   At NGLA there was also an option of carrying the ball out of the bottleneck, but that option left a less preferred line over a bunker.    

Here is H.J. Whigham's 1909 description of the Bottleneck concept as it was originally intended at NGLA, along with an aerial of NGLA bottleneck and a diagram of the concept from the same Whigham article.
 




The hole and the options have changes somewhat over the years.

[Jay Flemma]

That's Stone Bridge isn't it?  Number 1?

I think they call it a Bottle Hole if it is...good course, great practice for your short game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I suppose some could call it a "bottle" hole, but, it would seem to be the mongrelized version at best.

There appears to be no decision presented to the intelligent golfer and no risk reward for taking the more difficult path off the tee..

[John_Cullum]

It's a hole on a golf course. Call it whatever you want

[Bill_McBride]

Bryan,

I suppose some could call it a "bottle" hole, but, it would seem to be the mongrelized version at best.

There appears to be no decision presented to the intelligent golfer and no risk reward for taking the more difficult path off the tee..

Patrick, take a look at the aerial posted in post #10 by David.  From the aerial, and from I remember from my only two plays of NGLA's Bottle hole, there is no advantage to being on one side or another of the central bunkers.  From either side, you must carry front bunkers up onto an elevated green.  The challenge is keeping the tee shot in play as the fairway(s) narrow with length.

It seems to me that the hole shown has the same attributes even if not nearly as ancient or sexy.  Thoughts?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I suppose some could call it a "bottle" hole, but, it would seem to be the mongrelized version at best.

There appears to be no decision presented to the intelligent golfer and no risk reward for taking the more difficult path off the tee..

Patrick, take a look at the aerial posted in post #10 by David.  From the aerial, and from I remember from my only two plays of NGLA's Bottle hole, there is no advantage to being on one side or another of the central bunkers. 


Previously, I had to prove the advantage to TEPaul, now I have to prove it to you.

The right side of the fairway sits down, well below the left side.
In addition, the right side has far more slope in it, whereas the left side is relatively flat

Thus, the left side, the more difficult side to hit from the tee, provides a tactical advantage. (risk/reward}

The lower, sidehill, uphill slope, when combined with a prevaling wind in your face makes the approach shot more difficult from the riight side, and tends to push the ball to the right, which is death

From either side, you must carry front bunkers up onto an elevated green.  The challenge is keeping the tee shot in play as the fairway(s) narrow with length.

It seems to me that the hole shown has the same attributes even if not nearly as ancient or sexy.  Thoughts?

While I can't see the topo of the hole Bryan posted, the challenges look entirely different.
On Bryan's hole, tee shots hit to the wider right side are rewarded with a more benign approach into a green angled to accept balls from the right better than balls from the left

[Bill_McBride]

Well, at least I feel honored to be mentioned along with Tom Paul.   

[Bradley Anderson]

Nice post David.

[Bryan Izatt]

The hole in question is from Rattlesnake Point Copperhead course near Toronto.  Designed by Tom McBroom in 1999.  From the three back tees it measures 443, 408 and 380 yards.  The carry distances of the centre of the three bunkers are 330, 300 and 270 yards, so the left fairway is not really an option to carry.  Laying up to the left of the bunkers, intentionally or not provides a more difficult angle into the green.  The right fairway, which provides a better angle to the green does narrow the further down you try to drive it.

[Bryan Izatt]

Comment #1:

The green is oriented to encourage shots from the wide portion of the fairway.  It is.  But the wide area narrows down the further you try to drive it, hence my feeling that it has the prime characteristic of a bottle hole.  My first impression of it was that it reminded me of the bottle hole at Old Mac, although the green is a whole lot more receptive than the one at Old Mac.

Comment #2:

The narrow portion of the fairway looks too narrow to attempt a play there.  I agree, and it is out of the range of any golfer playing from the appropriate tees.  In that respect, I think the left fairway seems to be a failure unless it is designed to attract the gullible.

Comment #3:

But if it isn't too narrow, then this works only if the green tilts from back right down.  There's a semi bowl on the left side of the green, so I guess a bit of a sloe up to the back right.  I'd love to hear your analysis of this hole when you are on the tee for the first time.  I found it confusing.  Perhaps that was intended in the design.

[Bryan Izatt]

Alex,

Tom McBroom is a well respected modern Canadian architect.  Redesigning his holes for him is a little brash.      Although, even you with your length couldn't use the left fairway on this hole.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

Thanks for the Sunningdale original.  Like many templates it looks very little like the CBM version to my eye.


David,

Thanks for the Whigham article and sketch.  If the principle feature of the bottle hole is the narrowing of the preferred landing area, then this hole seems to qualify.  Interesting that some of the features described in the article and the sketch don't match with the aerial.  For instance, the sketch seems to suggest that the 260 bunker actually blocks the narrow opening.

Patrick,

"Mongrelized"?  Didn't CBM espouse that variation on the principle theme were a good thing.  I agree there is no apparent risk/reward for the more difficult left side.  But it does have the requisite major principle of the narrowing of the fairway.  It doesn't seem to have the nuances of the two fairways that you describe at NGLA.  So, it's not a copy, but perhaps it's a template.

Bill,

What did you think of the Old Mac bottle hole?  Was it close to the NGLA one?

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

Tom McBroom is a well respected modern Canadian architect.  Redesigning his holes for him is a little brash.      Although, even you with your length couldn't use the left fairway on this hole.

Haha. Could you describe the topography of the hole? Maybe there is some silver-lining to what he did? I'd like to think there's something I'm missing because, well, it's hard to see how those bunkers (and their mowlines) work in their current formation. Also what's the point of the pair of bunkers in the upper-left? I hope I'm not being prematurely critical...

[Bryan Izatt]

Alex,

It is easy to criticize any hole.  It all depends on perspective.  Let's assume that you would play this hole from the back tees at 443 yards.  The two bunkers left are over 260 yards.  I suppose they'd punish you if you were trying to go up the left side and pull hooked it a bit.  They are probably unnecessary, the first cut bluegrass rough is punitive enough.  If you go left side it is about 300 yards to the left corner of the three middle bunkers.  From there your approach has to carry the left greenside bunker.  If you opted to play right, the shoret right bunkers require a carry of 260 yards.  That might get in your head if the wind was against.  the right fairway slopes a bit down towards the centre bunkers, so when the fairways are firm and fast you can get more rollout than you expect.  If you pick right, then where are you going to aim.  If you miss right the rough is, well, rough.  If you tug it a bit left, you can easily run out into the bunkers.  If you hit 3 wood and lay up to the bunkers, then you have a longer second shot.  So, lots of options. And the primary feature of a bottle hole.  I thought that would be popular on here.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

Thanks for the Sunningdale original.  Like many templates it looks very little like the CBM version to my eye.

As I understand it, CBM was much more concerned with the underlying concepts than he was the golf holes from which the concept came. I may me misremembering, but I think somewhere CBM or Whigham wrote that the inspiration for the Biarritz concept was not even a good golf hole, but that the concept was a good one.

David,

Thanks for the Whigham article and sketch.  If the principle feature of the bottle hole is the narrowing of the preferred landing area, then this hole seems to qualify.  Interesting that some of the features described in the article and the sketch don't match with the aerial.  For instance, the sketch seems to suggest that the 260 bunker actually blocks the narrow opening.

I won't get into whether the aerial you posted matches anyone's idea of a "template" but it sure looks like it uses the underlying bottleneck concept.  It might fit better with the concept if there bunkers or more identifiable trouble narrowing the fairway on the right, but perhaps bunkers are enough.

As for the Whigham article, I don't think it necessarily contradicts the diagram because in 1909 I don't think Whigham contemplated anyone driving it 260 into the last bunker.  In other words, I think he viewed "the neck" as short of the last bunker.

Patrick's take on NGLA's bottle hole is interesting because it shows that the strategic balance of the hole may have evolved, at least for Patrick.  The left carry was always a possibility and it was probably always preferred by some people,  perhaps when it was conceived, the advantage of the higher ground might have been offset by longer second shot and the angle and the carry bunker, but it sounds like for him at least Patrick sees this as the preferred shot.