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Matt Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Champion's Gate
« on: January 20, 2002, 02:34:29 PM »
Assuming Greg Norman is indulging in gross self flattery when he compares his International Course at Champion's Gate to Royal Melbourne, is it worth playing if in Orlando?  

Does it play firm?

What are the course conditions like?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Solario

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2002, 04:17:13 PM »
I played Champion's Gate International back in October of this past year.  My feelings on the course are mixed.  It was really tough and windy the day I played.  Norman dotted the course with a lot of little pot bunkers, and if you get into one of them it is hell.  Alot of the holes seemed repetitive to me, especially the par threes.  They all were around 220+ from the tips, and they were all surrounded by 4 or 5 pot bunkers.  (17 was my favorite par three and it was under 140 from the tips.)  Holes #7,8,10,11,16 and 17 are unique.  The rest of the holes are just forgetable.  The course did play firm, which was a plus, but overall I was a little disapointed.  It's a good course, but nothing spectacular.  I still believe World Woods and Southern Dunes are the best in the Central Florida area.

With Mr. Norman's comment about the course being similar to Royal Melbourne... I wouldn't know because I've never played there.  I've seen many pictures of RM and the International Course at Champions Gate looks nothing like it.  I actually felt the International Course reminded me more of the lowcountry courses in South Carolina (Kiawah's Ocean Course.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2002, 04:22:13 PM »
I've not played RM but played most of AM's great courses and I see no resemblance at Champion's Gate which is a cross between the Medalist and Grand Cypress.  It is very penal with relatively small greens on a site that can be very windy. The rough areas lend themselves to many lost balls=play is SLOW.  I think that there are a few very interesting green  complexes but a few over the top and some just stupid.  Playing the course is an adventure but hardly a pleasure.  This past summer and fall it did not play firm and fast but that may have changed with the cooler temperatures and regression of the bermuda.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2002, 09:55:30 PM »
Everyone coming to O-town asks about these, and I can tell by the way they ask that they hope they're great.  You can add me to that club.  I was anxious to see them.

Unfortunately, they're not.  See Whitten's review if you want the long version.  I've posted my thoughts on this site more times than anyone could count.

Your question about firm conditions is a good one.  It was very soft and lush on the International course all summer.  I would love to play it when the greens didn't hold and you had to land 7-irons 25 yards short of the green.  Then the bunkering would make sense, as would the yardages.

Joe is right, it can be a very hard course.  74 to qualify for the Florida Am, however, as it wasn't too windy.  Lots of good players all over the state.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2002, 10:02:48 AM »
The one Greg Norman course I've played is pretty darn good.. it's reviewed on this site - Wente Vineyards in Livermore, CA.  Maybe all his other coures patently suck, I don't know, but this one is very well designed.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2002, 12:56:25 PM »
I know I'm going to be asked to defend this one, but I absolutely loved the Norman Course at Barefoot Resort in Myrtle Beach.  So did everyone else in my group.  

However, it will only get worse over time as extensive housing is already well underway.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2002, 01:20:04 PM »
No hassles, shivas.  I just wanted to point out that a "good" Norman course existed, which Mike has seconded... I'm sure there are indeed "bad" ones also.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2002, 05:57:59 PM »
shivas:

I'm with you.  I've played three of them, and only the
Medalist impressed me even a little bit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2002, 06:14:25 PM »
I don't know, but I think there's alot of anti-Shark thoughts out there and it comes out when people look at his architecture. Medalist is a very good course (gotta believe Pete Dye helped ALOT) which from our previous discussions has been tinkered perhaps too much. Wente Vineyards aside from a few holes is very strong. 3 very tough finishing holes define that course.

Awhile ago we talked about Doonbeg and it was mentioned as a dissapointment. Kind of crazy to think that when it aint even it open yet. Don't we think we should wait to see how it plays for awhile?

I walked a few holes at Champions Gate and if they can keep it firm & fast it looks pretty tough.

What about Tiburon also? Also sounds like from some of the press clippings, the owners gave him a bumb deal for his Phoenix course which Fazio redid. Anyidea's where he's working next?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Integrity in the moment of choice

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2002, 06:58:36 PM »
I have also heard that Dye had alot more input at Medalist than Norman.  I enjoyed Medalist around the greens.  Some of the carries from the back tees were rediculous, but I guess it was built for Greg and his buddies.

I enjoyed The Point GC in Charlotte area (ironically enough on Lake Norman).

I really enjoyed his Reserve at Litchfield Plantation in Myrtle Beach area.  The private club down in Pawleys Island.  I have been back a few times and love the firm conditions as well as the course in general.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

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Steve_F

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2002, 08:22:53 AM »
John_f

Norman just opened one at Hilton Head, SC.  Oldfield Plantation.

http://www.islandpacket.com/heritage/story/1022087p-1073037c.html


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2002, 06:32:16 PM »
Champions Gate-International struck me as not only hard, but as virtually incompetent in terms of routing, safety, placement of forward tees directly in front of hazards, and overall shot-making. I have never been so outraged at a golf course before. As someone said, it shows what happens when nobody on his staff can say "no."

I could not bring myself to play the National Course, though I'm told it's marginally better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bobby (Guest)

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2002, 10:02:36 PM »
Brad Klein -

Perhaps you could shed some light on the forward tees placed directly in front of hazards for me?  What holes?

What are the safety problems?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve_F

Re: Champion's Gate
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2002, 11:07:57 AM »
Ok this is the same kind of unfounded criticism that I have heard from another magazine golf critic.

What the hell is Brad Klein talking about. Assuming - Brad Klein posted the comment  Hazards in front of forward tees?  I can only think of one where the forward tees hit over a hazard and it can't be more than 50 yards at most.  And the hazard is a waste bunker so it can easily be played.  What are the safety problems?  10 tees? My understanding from working at Champions Gate is that the nines were reversed after construction.  Finally the shotmaking?  I think the course asks a lot of the players in terms of shotmaking not only on the drives and approaches but around the greens with the tifdwarf approaches and no rough like the Medalist.  It is defenitely demanding and a good score is respected.  Par really means something around this course.  So many other places it doesn't.

Brad - did you even go/play the course.  Perhaps you and Ron Whitten made the same non-exsitent site visit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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