[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

When I joined this site, I promised Mr. Morrissett that I would write an essay comparing and contrasting Pebble Beach and Pacific Dunes. That essay is about 1/4 complete, but as it stands now I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger at work and it doesn't look like that is going to slow down. So, I decided I'd put it out on here as I get chance to compare holes one at a time. The final conclusion, which I will build to over how ever much time, is that I think Pebble Beach is the better course, having 6 or 7 holes which are better than the corresponding holes at Pacific Dunes and Pacific having 5 or 6 holes which are better than the holes at Pebble; the rest come out as draws.

I don't intend to post pictures of either of these courses, no need to eat away any more of Mr. Morrissett's server space when there are probably a dozen photo essays of each course on here and for those who have played one or both courses, I suspect your memory of each hole is far more vivid in detail than any picture, mine sure is.

Hole #1: Just a quick review of each of these. Neither opener is the finest hole on the course. Each hole requires proper placement off the tee in order to have the best line into the green and each hole takes the driver out of the hands of the better/longer player. The green is probably better at Pacific Dunes but the atmosphere on the tee at Pebble makes up for that. Overall, I say these two holes come out as even.

#1=Draw

[Tim_Weiman]

Jamie,

What do you see in the atmosphere around the first hole at Pebble?  I always found it pretty unappealing. Aren't Cypress, Spyglass and Spanish Bay all better?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie,

What do you see in the atmosphere around the first hole at Pebble?  I always found it pretty unappealing. Aren't Cypress, Spyglass and Spanish Bay all better?

I haven't played any of the three you list and don't suspect I ever will, unless I qualify for the Tour and play the Crosby...I'm not personal friends with any past US Presidents or other dignitaries, so I don't suspect I'll ever see the second tee at Cypress (seen the 1st in a drive-by  ) and I don't consider Spyglass and Spanish to be worth the price of admission. Pebble Beach just has an aura about it, for me. The feeling I felt on the first tee at Pebble has only been matched by my feeling on the first tee at TOC. Pacific is just understated (and that is fine) but Pebble, with the clubhouse right there, all the groups waiting to tee off, people meandering around the shops, eating, etc., its just electric as far as I'm concerned.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I've never played Pebble.
I did walk to the first tee and 18th green.
I was very unimpressed with the first tee.
Seemed to be in a tunnel of trees out behind the caddy shack surrounded by housing.
Where was the ambiance?

The look on the first tee at Pacific blows away Pebble IMO.

Cheers

[Alex Miller]

Mike,

I've also never played Pebble, well not in real life. I did get to walk it extensively for 2 days during the open last summer and I'm still gonna have to agree with you EVEN THOUGH I know I'm gonna get heat for it because I've never played the course and I'm agreeing with a guy who's never walked most of the course.

There are some opening tee shots that are clearly special, and there are reasons. Merion for the proximity to the onlookers, Riviera for the drop, but I don't t think there is anything outstanding about the opening shot at Pebble. To say that it's because you're excited to play a great course is an OK reason for a shot to be special, but why not apply that to Pacific Dunes too (if we are being objective how can we assume Pebble is more special than Pacific)? Is it the $$$? I know I'd be more anxious over making sure I enjoy a $500 round to $120 one. Is that what adds the excitement?

I promise I'm not a butt-boy (Trails is my favorite Bandon course), or even biased towards Pacific in the slightest as even from just walking the course, I can tell Pebble is truly a special place and I'd probably pick it as the winner of this exercise or most head to heads between the courses. However, I think Pacific rightfully wins hole #1 as it's just a much better golf hole, especially from the 300 tees where it can be a fun and strategic driveable par 4.

[Kevin Pallier]

#1=Draw

I agree with that - though neither are very good holes

I look forard to the rest of your assesment as I fail to see how PB comes close to PD

[Steve Kline]

I thought the atmosphere on #1 at Pebble was awful. It's crowded and noisy and I felt like I was in a horrible Flordia condo development. I was really surprised that was how the course started since I'd never seen it on TV.

[Andy Troeger]

The 1st at Pacific offers a lot more choices and options than the 1st at Pebble, which is pretty much "just get it out there" somewhere kind of hole. The 1st at Pebble is certainly far more nervewracking in terms of setting and history, but I almost aced #1 at Pacific but missed the ten-footer from right behind the hole for eagle too. I don't agree that Pebble is a tunnel of trees at least in 2007 it seemed pretty wide.

Pac 1 up for me, but Pebble will rally later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

According to some, each of the individual features in Sophia Loren's face and body weren't particularly attractive, although, I'd certainly argue about the body parts, but, when put together they combined to produce a stunning, voluptuous woman.

Sometimes the same concept applies to golf courses when examine their individual holes/features, hence I've never put much stock in hole by hole comparisons, especially when done on the order of play.

How do you compare holes with differing par ?

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I have been fortunate to play both Pebble Beach and Pacific Dunes several times and I honestly thing Pacific Dunes beats Pebble Beach hands down as far as the first tee goes.

As for Pebble, I think the first tee area is quite congested between the pro shop, hedges, homes, cart paths, etc.  Throw in the bystanders taking it all in, there is quite a bit of commotion - not the first thing I want on the first tee when one already has some jitters.  The tee shot isn't overly complicated and really doesn't make one feel uncomfortable which to me is a good thing given everything else going on.

As for Pacific, I love the setting - but really struggle with the tee shot. I love coming out of the clubhouse (I think I may have liked the trailer even more than the new building they recently built) and working my way to the practice putting green and starter. I love the putting green and it's seclusion. It is a nice respite before one begins the round. Even with some of the commotion around the first tee, once you step up to it most of the commotion fades pretty quickly and you are left with just your foursome, caddies, and starter.  As for the tee shot, it has always been uncomfortable for me and I always end up on the right (some times more right than others) and leave myself a pretty poor angle/line of sight into the green.

As for exiting the tee box, I love Pacific in how you begin your journey and leave civilization behind and you know the dunes, ocean, and wind are what lies ahead. Even as good as Pebble is, except for a few brief (too brief) moments from five to ten, I feel I am always surrounded by carts paths and homes.

Just my two cents...

[Jim Jackson]

Having played both a few time, I find the opening tee shot at Pebble to be much more challenging, specifically to keep the ball in the right half of the fairway to allow the best short iron approach.  At Pacific, it's just a 3 wood or long iron to the expanse of wavy fairway, left of the dune.  Both approaches are fairly straightforward, but the nod in beauty goes to PD, as the dune behind the green is a compelling backdrop. 

[Michael Dugger]

I don't see how one can possibly attempt to perform an in depth comparison of these two courses.

Granted, each is on the west coast.

Granted, each have some ocean front holes.

Granted, both consist of 18 tees and 18 greens.

Each is an out and back routing.

But they are so fundamentally different. 

PB possesses a set of some of the smallest greens anywhere.  Pacific has many huge greens.

Pacific plays fast and firm all the time, and the architecture is appropriate for it.  Pebble is just not that course.

You don't work the ball on the ground as much as Pebble, putt from off the green and use contours to work the ball onto greens and close to flagsticks.

Pacific Dunes has a bona-fide linksy feel.  Pebble?  I'd say for one to claim as much is a farce.  Indeed it's called Pebble Beach Golf Links, but that's where the similarities between Pebble and a genuine ancient links end.

Long story short is so much of choosing "the best" comes down to your personal preference.  I adore true links courses.  For me Pacific Dunes is a hands down winner here.  I also think the inland holes at Pebble are dogs.  And the new bunkers are kinda ug.
 
For others, perhaps the additional ocean front holes has them favoring Pebble.





 

[Garland Bayley]

...
Hole #1: Just a quick review of each of these. Neither opener is the finest hole on the course. Each hole requires proper placement off the tee in order to have the best line into the green and each hole takes the driver out of the hands of the better/longer player. The green is probably better at Pacific Dunes but the atmosphere on the tee at Pebble makes up for that. Overall, I say these two holes come out as even.
...

Is your review going to be on the mythical shot values? Or are you going to get into variety, strategy, and other salient points?

[Jud_T]

Pac Dunes #1 easily IMO...

[Richard Choi]

I have a very hard time believing that vast majority of people on this site wouldn't vote for PD #1 as a far superior hole. It is about as a strategic short par 4 as you will find anywhere. The kind of a hole where you find new things almost every time you play it.

[Sean Leary]

Richard,

Is it strategic from the back tee? I am not sure.

[Kalen Braley]

I too think Pacific #1 is a better hole.

I see 3 options off the tee:

1)  Safe club up the middle, perhaps a fairway wood, to get the round off without incident.
2)  Go left for more distance and a look into the green
3)  Go for the green (winter wind only) as Andy mentioned.

As far as aesthics, there is no comparison.  The big heaving dune to the right of the fairway for sliced tee balls is intimidating.  The rumpled fairway countours.  The interesting hummocks just in front of the green.  It all works pretty well.  Pebble Beach #1 is a decent hole, but nothing special...something that one can reasonable encounter on their home course.

In the battle between PD and PB, PD is easily 1 up at this point!

[Richard Choi]

Richard,

Is it strategic from the back tee? I am not sure.

I think with the prevailing wind from behind, most certainly yes. Headwind? Probably not as much...

[Jim Franklin]

PD 2 up after 1. (That's how much more I like PD's opener versus PB's )

[Kalen Braley]

Richard,

Is it strategic from the back tee? I am not sure.

I think with the prevailing wind from behind, most certainly yes. Headwind? Probably not as much...

Is the prevailing wind the winter wind?  I always thought it was the summer wind?

[Richard Choi]

Kalen, you are correct, I believe the NW wind is the prevailing wind. I stand corrected.

[William_G]

Sean,

Definitely a different hole from the back tee right next the fireplace @PD, have to hit a great drive, whereas PB, not much change and no difficulty. How about the tee behind 18 green @PD? Worst hole @PB IMHO.

[Kalen Braley]

On to the 2nd hole....

While not as big of a rout, I'm still liking PD #2 way more than PB #2.

PD 2 up thru 2!! 

[Andy Troeger]

For me the hole-by-hole on these two courses isn't a great way to evaluate or compare them. I have Pebble slightly higher than Pac overall with both in my top ten, but I'd say that Pebble probably has at least 4 holes that I like better than any hole at PD (6, 7, 8, and 18 for sure), but then Pebble also has most of the weaker holes overall, so a straight 1/1, 2/2 comparison will depend more on which Pebble hole happens to be up because none of the holes at PD are going to beat Pebble #8 for me, but all of them would beat #15, etc.

They really are very different, but very special, courses. It doesn't get much better than either one. And technically I like Trails a smidge better than PD just for best at Bandon!

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Mr. Bayley I will add in shot values and options and such as I come to them. As far as this hole goes, and obviously some disagree with me, I didn't see much in the way of huge options on either hole. I mean, Pebble is a slight Cape type hole, you can aim straight away off the tee, try to fade it off the tee or aim as far right as you dare. The farther right you hit the tee shot, the shorter shot you have into the green. At Pacific the better angle is from the left side of the fairway, but its playable from either side.

As far as the greens, I really don't remember the specifics of them, I just know that I feel like Pacific has the better green. And I feel like Pebble wins out on tradition and feel (only time I will use this in the hole, but for the first hole, it fits). Again, draw between the two.


Mr. Braley I know a "secret" about you, one shared by our mutual friend...one with direct implications here...


Mr. Mucci, Troeger, et al., Yes, I know hole-by-hole assessments are not the best. However, it does work well to get out and discuss the merits of each hole individually.

And as I said before, and knowing this is a losing fight with many of the folks here who are professed PD lovers, I feel like Pebble is the better course, not by a large margin, but better nonetheless.

Thoughts on Hole 2 might come tomorrow, depends how I feel after work.

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