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Tim Leahy

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Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2011, 07:19:54 PM »
Jamie, next time play Spyglass it is worth the money. Can't say the same for Spanish Bay.
Also, drop the Mr. stuff, even if you are a kid and respect your elders, these guys on this site are very casual.
Pebble is one of the great courses that I always feel nervous on the first tee, so I am glad I don't have any distractions.
Last time I played Pebble it was $375 with a cart and it was worth every penny.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2011, 07:23:29 PM »
Price has no relevance when evaluating/comparing the architectural merits of each hole and the golf courses as a whole.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2011, 07:41:18 PM »

So, back to my question.  Have you seen or played Pebble?

Quit being an *#$#Y Jordan.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2011, 07:50:07 PM »
Jamie - Can you clarify if the essay you are working is a full compare / contrast of the two courses or if the essay is simply the aggregation of your comments of each of the 18 holes you are going to post here?  Your comments on the comparison of the first holes were very brief.  Dont think it would give much flavor to anyone that hasn't played both courses but maybe that isn't the intent. Just trying to figure out if that's the first hole entry to the essay you reference in your original post or if this is just a separate exercise as you write a broader essay comparing and contrasting the two courses. 

Yes, I intend for it to go beyond a simple comparison of holes to one another. I agree that is not the best. I do it in order to look at and discuss each set of holes individually. I haven't really formulated what exactly I intend to do, but I want to look at the holes as pairs and once that is complete look at the combined shot values, shot varieties, and so forth.

Tim I'm just an old boy from the South and I'm used to calling folks Sir and Ma'am, mister and so forth, just habit. But I'm not a kid anymore, unfortunately...going on 33. As for Spyglass, they want like $350 for it now I think, so for the extra $145 [I'd take a caddie at either one] I'd pick Pebble every time.

Kalen you are correct, Pacific is a better value...but not as much so as some might want to say. I think the overall quality of golf at Pebble is fractionally better, but you're paying for "history" as well, so that's why they can charge what they do.


Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2011, 08:56:27 PM »
One comment about my review of #1 which was slightly criticized by Tim Bert. My review was somewhat low on detail because I don't really see much great or noteworthy about either opener. At Pebble I hit 3w-PW on the hole and at Pacific I hit 2i-GW. I noticed that one good poster here said he hit driver on #1 at Pacific, so I suppose that is an additional option, but not one I'd ever take, and in truth, given the way the wind blows from right to left in the summer, I can't see many people at all taking that option off the first tee. But overall, my review was short because I just don't see much to talk about on either hole, they're not terrible by any stretch, but not great.

As an additional comment, one that really came to mind as I was writing the review below, is that I can't really recall many of the green features. At a course like Tobacco Road, I can remember the features, because they are all Macro features, very big. But both of these courses typically have very subtle features within the greens and those tend to be hard for me to remember after few plays. [I do remember the features at Old Macdonald, but those also tended to be macro features or much larger and sweeping 'subtle' ones] So, if I happen to miss some slope or feature in the green, I apologize.
Hole 2
Pebble Beach= Par 5/4 511/502 yards
Pacific Dunes= Par 4 368 yards

This is a tough comparison. On the card, from the blue tees, Pebble Beach has a par 5 second hole. Catch is, the people who aught to be playing this course from the back tees are mostly all long enough to reach the green in two shots given the hole plays downhill from the tee and with the prevailing wind. So, in many ways, I find myself reviewing this hole as a par 4, as it plays from the US Open tees. Each time I played this hole I hit Driver-6 iron to the green, hit once and missed right once. As a par 4 it is rather boring and devoid of options. The player either hits the fairway and hits to the green without much risk or misses the fairway and does whatever he chooses. But as a par 5, the way the hole was designed to be played, it forces the player to make a decision on where to play his second shot based on where the tee shot wound up. Hit the tee shot far enough and out of trouble (and yes, I know the hole didn't have the same bunker configuration years ago that it does today) and decide if he is in range to try to make the carry over the cross bunker short of the green. As a par 4, this is just a tough, long par 4 that requires two straight shots, but as a par 5, the way it was originally intended to be played [and unfortunately, better players don't play it this way anymore] it is a very, very good hole.

At Pacific Dunes, the player is presented with a fairly wide fairway [perhaps it is "wide" but whatever] and several options off the tee. The right side, or a line short of the centerline bunker, provides the player a safe play but a semi-blind or blind shot to the green, either having to hit a large draw on line with the angle of the green or over a large dune and bunkers with the bottom of the flagstick not visible. However, the more aggressive play takes the player over the center bunker and likely flirting with the bunker on the left. This option gives the player the best line into the green and a look down the longest angle of the green.

Both green complexes are very good and the holes, as they were designed to be played, are both very good and have options, either off the tee at Pacific, or how to play the second at Pebble. So, if I were to compare these two holes as par 4's, as I play them, I would say that Pacific has the better hole, of course it's easier for a mid-length par 4 to be better and more interesting than a long one, but as it stands, Pacific has a par 4 that is demanding off the tee and Pebble has a par 5 that brings real interest and thought into the second shot, something rare in many par 5's today.

Once again, I call this one a draw, but this time a draw between two really good holes.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2011, 09:05:27 PM »
First you say Pebble's second is boring as a par 4, then you decide to review it as a par 4 and end by saying that it's a draw because they're really good holes.

If a hole is boring, can it be really good? (note, I may start a thread with this topic if it can't be answered here)

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2011, 09:27:12 PM »
First you say Pebble's second is boring as a par 4, then you decide to review it as a par 4 and end by saying that it's a draw because they're really good holes.

If a hole is boring, can it be really good? (note, I may start a thread with this topic if it can't be answered here)

I would request that you re-read what I wrote about the hole. I did say it was a boring par 4, but I reviewed it as a par 5 as well. I guess 'boring' is the wrong term. As a par 4, the hole requires that you hit 2 precision shots. You either hit two shots straight, or you're not likely to make par and if you do, you pulled off a fantastic shot or two. As a par 4, the hole simply does not have a great number of options, but its 502 yards and even downwind, that's a rather long par 4, so not likely to call for some precise angular shot and so forth. Its a better hole as a par 5, but they don't have the real estate to make the hole play as I suspect the designer originally intended, and that is unfortunate. I just mapped it out on Google, and the tee would have to be nearly in the swimming pool of that clay roofed house to the left of #1 fairway in order for the hole to require a 260-270 carry over the cross bunker, which is about the distance required if you want a top tier player to even think twice about hitting the shot. So, I review the hole as it was meant to be played, and how I suspect it was played up to probably even 20 years ago. As that, it's a very good par 5 being compared to a very good par 4, so...Draw.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2011, 09:46:57 PM »
Jamie,

Did you play # 2 at Pebble from the back tee, the tee that's between the 1st green and the 1st tee ?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2011, 09:47:51 PM »
Fair enough, you do say it is a really good hole as a par 5. It's been debated in other threads, but I don't think "par" actually changes the merits of a hole, especially in an exercise when holes of different par will be compared to one another. To me the second is the same hole as a par 5 or as a par 4, but it is a different hole than 30 years ago because of technology.

I have no qualms over the draw, though in a duel to the death I'd give PD the nod just cause of the greensite, which is tremendously fun to chip on even after holing out.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2011, 09:57:05 PM »
Jamie,

Did you play # 2 at Pebble from the back tee, the tee that's between the 1st green and the 1st tee ?

I played from like 6 inches forward of the 511 yard marker. That tee was back pretty much in the elbow of the dogleg of #1. If there is a tee behind that one, I didn't see it and they wouldn't have let me play it anyway. But I'm like 99.9% sure that I played it within a yard of the max possible, I mean, from what I remember, anything behind where I was would go across the cart path and be in the playing corridor of #1.

Alex, typically I would agree with you that changing par does not change the merits. And calling this hole a 4 or 5 does not change the merits as it sits today. The second time I played Pebble, I just went as a single while I was working in Monterey and was paired up with some guys, they played the Gold tees and played the hole as I suspect it was originally intended to be played, they really had to debate on the second shot, so telling them its a "par 4" doesn't make much difference. I am judging the merits of #2 the way they played it, they way I firmly believe it was intended to be played, and not the way I play it or the way we see it played in the US Open.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 10:00:57 PM by Jamie Van Gisbergen »

Andy Troeger

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2011, 10:11:27 PM »
Michael D.,

Have you at least been to Pebble? I tend to agree with most of your positive feelings about Pacific, but I don't personally feel your comments about Pebble are particularly accurate even regarding the type of course it presents. Its challenging, but I'd say that its more strategic overall and not especially penal. Pebble is probably harder overall, but not by all that much. The biggest difference is the size and shape of the greens. I love Pebble's small targets and Pacific's large ones. The 5th at Pebble has tons of room out to the left and a bit of an apron if you wanted to try to cut the ball in.

Jamie,
I think a draw for #2 is pretty reasonable. I like the second at Pebble--it forces a choice on the 2nd shot to go for it or not, especially for the more average player or anyone that misses the fairway. I think there are quite a few different ways to play it depending on how the tee shot goes. The 2nd at Pacific is a good one as well and the center bunker really makes the hole. If absolutely forced to pick one I'd go Pac, but overall I think a draw is the better option. Pac 1 up.

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2011, 10:51:36 PM »
Richard Choi explain your comment about the "fix" being in?

Michael Dugger you can run/roll the ball onto 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, and 18. No big deal.


[and sorry if these responses seen terse, I've tried to post this 3 times all ready and my computer has frozen, so this is the short, short version]

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2011, 11:56:16 PM »
I have never played Pebble Beach, except for about a million rounds of video game golf.

Listen, fellas, I'm not speaking about specifics of the course.  I'm not qualified to do so.

And nor are you, Jordan, for that matter.

Do you think you are infitely more qualified to speak on Pebble Beach because you played it what, once, Jordan?  I can smell the gears grinding in your cranium, angling to figure out a way to "roast me."  Keep trying, dude.  Your Pat Mucci approach is not helping your position here.

Jamie hit driver 6 iron into the 2nd hole at Pebble???  I think this tells me all I need to know about what kind of player he is.  :o  Is he really Matt Ward incognito?

Both Pebble and Pacific are tremendous courses.  I guess it makes sense to want to compare them because they are the premier Pacific Ocean public coastal courses.

Pebble has more ocean frontage, that's for sure.  It also has golf holes with houses on them.  :-\

Pacific is built on genuine linksland, with fabulous, year-round fast and firm fescue turfgrass.  :D

When playing the Sheep Ranch, I had visions of a Pebble Beach style course on that property.  For one, if affords more room than Pacific Dunes for golf holes right on the cliffs edge kinda a la PB.

And for two, Sheep Ranch isn't really sand dunes, or genuine linksland like found at Pacific Dunes.  Perhaps there is sand underneath, but it doesn't ring of linksland to me, like at Pac, or Spyglass 1-5 or at CP.

A golf writer far more intelligent than I has opined whether or not Pebble Beach would be much of a course if you somehow removed the ocean.  Additionally, golf professionals have bellyached for years about the potential mushy conditions at Pebble.

Can a course that's only in optimal condition some of the time really be "better" than one that offers year round fast and firm?  

Or do I need to play the course in order to be allowed to cite golf professional's opinions?



    



« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:03:27 AM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2011, 01:12:38 AM »
Mike,

I know what you are getting at but you are going in the wrong direction. CP and Spy 1-5 are much more similar to Pebble than to Bandon. While you prefer firm and fast, it is your preference, not a given fact that it is better. 

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2011, 08:25:13 AM »
I think that from a strong golfer's championship test point of view there is little doubt that Pacific has any hope in this overall contest. But most of us aren't hitting driver 6-iron from the tips at Pebble #2.  Allow me to share the perspective of someone that actually still plays the hole as a par 5 and doesn't play the tips. I think it is the least interesting par 5 on the course. If I miss the fairway then I lay up short of the crossing bunker. Then I hit a wedge to the green. If I hit the fairway then I attempt to carry the crossing bunker but still can't usually get home in two. From there it is pitch and putt. The green is subtle but interesting like so many at Pebble but this hole just doesn't pass the greatness test as a par 5.

Pacific on the other hand has a world class par 4 siting in the #2 position.  You want history?  Play out of Shoe bunker and then go talk to Shoe about how he dug it out!  There are great options off the tee as you mentioned, and those options change with the prevailing wind.  Many golfers won't be able to play over the middle bunker in the summer with the wind in their face. They can still choose left and short which provides a better look but not necessarily angle to the green. Those same golfers can enjoy the thrill of hitting a drive right next to the green in a strong winter wind. The bunkerin is fantastic on this hole and the green is perhaps one of the most interesting and wild of a group of overall pretty subtle Doak greens. The giant hump in the green complicates everything.

If these holes, as they exist today, don't yield a slaughter for PD then that course has no hope in the match play. Please don't take this as a criticism.  I don't think your opinion can be wrong since it is your opinion. I am just sharing a very different perspective.  Pacific is 2 up through 2 for me.  The strength of Pebble for me is the middle stretch, not the opening.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2011, 09:11:19 AM »
I mean, saying that #1 PD vs #1 PB is a draw says the fix is in.

This from a poster who hasn't played Pebble Beach Golf Links.   If there's any fix in regarding this comparison, it is attributable to the fact that Tom Doak posts on this site and no one can gain anything by sucking up to the deceased Jack Neville. 

 ;)
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2011, 09:16:19 AM »
Mike Dugger I have a couple of comments for you.

The houses at Pebble are not very much in play, only on #12 do I think a player really is able to hit into them. And they are not exactly ramshackle barns or something either.

How would the course be if removed from the ocean? Well, if you could replicate the land forms and wind, it would STILL be a great course, perhaps not quite as great because the ocean and cliffs gives it bonus points for looks. But the strategy of the holes do not change greatly. The only hole that would be a negative absent the ocean is 7.

And as far as "genuine linksland" well, I'll go into that later in detail, but lets just say that it might be linksland, but I don't consider Pacific Dunes to be a links course, at least not one like The Old Course or Old Macdonald. That will be detailed later on.

And your thought about can a course be great if it only offers optimum conditions for a portion of the year is quite flawed. Sure, Pacific Dunes is open and plays firm all year. Pebble plays rather firm in the summer and yes, can play soft in the winter. But that is not a flaw or a negative. How does your theory here work with courses like Pine Valley and many/most of the great courses north of D.C.? Is it a major flaw in their design that they are not even open for a good portion of the year? At least Pebble is playable all year, but that doesn't really matter in the overall evaluation of architecture. Pebble Beach is designed with this weather in mind and is playable as such. Its not designed to be a bump-and-run golf course like Pacific or Old Macdonald; thats variety in design, not flaw.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2011, 09:59:18 AM »
I mean, saying that #1 PD vs #1 PB is a draw says the fix is in.

This from a poster who hasn't played Pebble Beach Golf Links.   If there's any fix in regarding this comparison, it is attributable to the fact that Tom Doak posts on this site and no one can gain anything by sucking up to the deceased Jack Neville. 

 ;)

If there is any fix, it is attributable to a guy with an admitted classic course bias implying that anything favorable said about a modern course that is regarded as one of the best 10 or 20 on the planet must simply be due to people kissing up to the architect.  And then following up the dig with a winking emoticon.  Kind of like a trial lawyer making his comments that he knows will be struck from the record. The seed is planted.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I only prefer PD 2 to PB 2 because Tom Doak posts on GCA. I'd like to reverse my opinion and put Pebble up 2 holes.    ;)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2011, 10:50:41 AM »
Tim, I too have Pacific Dunes 2 up through 2 though I'm no fan of its first hole. 

BTW, I'm not biased, just knowledgable!  I KNOW classic courses are infinitely superior to their modern counterparts!

We're long overdue for lunch.  Send me an IM with your availability next week.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael Dugger

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Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2011, 11:58:20 AM »
Mike,

I know what you are getting at but you are going in the wrong direction. CP and Spy 1-5 are much more similar to Pebble than to Bandon. While you prefer firm and fast, it is your preference, not a given fact that it is better.  

Sean,

I see exposed sand dunes at Spyglass 1-5 and Cypress, where is it at Pebble Beach?

Perhaps I should have specified exposed sand dunes aka linksland.

And I'm baffled that Jamie V. doesn't think Pacific Dunes is a genuine links course.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:02:15 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2011, 12:06:22 PM »
...
Jamie hit driver 6 iron into the 2nd hole at Pebble???  I think this tells me all I need to know about what kind of player he is.  :o  Is he really Matt Ward incognito?
...

No, he is not Matt Ward. He is the real deal (unless John K Moore too is misleading me).
Chances are in a match, he would beat Matt 9 up with 8 to play (unless Wayne Morrison also was misleading me).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:16:07 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2011, 12:15:25 PM »
...
The houses at Pebble are not very much in play, only on #12 do I think a player really is able to hit into them. And they are not exactly ramshackle barns or something either.

Then why do the people that live on the course complain about all the golf balls that end up on their property?

...
And as far as "genuine linksland" well, I'll go into that later in detail, but lets just say that it might be linksland, but I don't consider Pacific Dunes to be a links course, at least not one like The Old Course or Old Macdonald. That will be detailed later on.

Given the proximity of PD and OM, what you say is nearly a geological impossibility.


...Its not designed to be a bump-and-run golf course like Pacific or Old Macdonald; thats variety in design, not flaw.

On what possible authority could you say that? Neville and Egan ever comment on that?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole>>Hole 2 Reviews posted
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2011, 12:20:55 PM »
Mike,

I know what you are getting at but you are going in the wrong direction. CP and Spy 1-5 are much more similar to Pebble than to Bandon. While you prefer firm and fast, it is your preference, not a given fact that it is better.  

Sean,

I see exposed sand dunes at Spyglass 1-5 and Cypress, where is it at Pebble Beach?

Perhaps I should have specified exposed sand dunes aka linksland.

And I'm baffled that Jamie V. doesn't think Pacific Dunes is a genuine links course.

Spyglass and CPC play very, very close to what Pebble does in terms of playing conditions. Not at all like PD.
As far as PD not being a genuine links, well, it isn't on genuine linksland. It 100% plays exactly like a links but it you want to get technical, it is not. But he mentioned OM being a links so perhaps he will explain why OM is and PD is not.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2011, 01:00:44 PM »
I mean, saying that #1 PD vs #1 PB is a draw says the fix is in.

This from a poster who hasn't played Pebble Beach Golf Links.   If there's any fix in regarding this comparison, it is attributable to the fact that Tom Doak posts on this site and no one can gain anything by sucking up to the deceased Jack Neville. 

 ;)

How's the brush tee treatin' ya, Bogey?

I say the "fix" is in because I feel like you already have your mind up on PB winning this comparison and you are calling each match based on that overall goal instead of truly comparing just a hole against another hole.

And while I have not played Pebble Beach, I just feel like I know that course. God knows I have played several thousand rounds on that golf course starting with the original Mean 18 to Links to MS Golf to TigerWoods 12... :)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach vs Pacific Dunes: Hole by Hole
« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2011, 01:31:29 PM »
I mean, saying that #1 PD vs #1 PB is a draw says the fix is in.

This from a poster who hasn't played Pebble Beach Golf Links.   If there's any fix in regarding this comparison, it is attributable to the fact that Tom Doak posts on this site and no one can gain anything by sucking up to the deceased Jack Neville. 

 ;)

How's the brush tee treatin' ya, Bogey?

I say the "fix" is in because I feel like you already have your mind up on PB winning this comparison and you are calling each match based on that overall goal instead of truly comparing just a hole against another hole.

And while I have not played Pebble Beach, I just feel like I know that course. God knows I have played several thousand rounds on that golf course starting with the original Mean 18 to Links to MS Golf to TigerWoods 12... :)

What is most scary is that you are serious....

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