Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes

[Brad Miller]

With the 2002 Womans Open coming to Prairie Dunes, thought it might be interesting to compare and contrast these two great golf courses. Who has been lucky enough to play both? Are they brothers, cousins or not that related?

[Mark_Fine]

Both are close to 10's as least as far as I have seen!  It doesn't get much better anywhere!

[John_Conley]

Glad Shaq's punch missed your head.  I was worried about ya', dude!

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Tough call -- but I'd opt for Sand Hills as my first choice. Why? I just like the degree of toughness and the overall consistency of the nines from the layout in Mullen.

PD has too many short par-4's for my blood -- but that's just me. I think a course should test your ability with the longer clubs as much as the shorter ones. I love a number of holes at PD -- the 8th is a super par-4, ditto the 9th, and the 10th a sensational par-3, to name just three. However, I don't see the back nine as adding to the qualities you get from a number of holes on the front.

When you play Sand Hills the complete experience is simply surreal -- it's just you and your thoughts on a rolling canvass that excites every bone in the body. Yes, you have wind at both sites, but the finish at Sand Hills is clearly more exacting. I'd give a slight edge to the greens at PD, but not as much as many would.

The women will clearly be tested thoroughly by the Maxwell design and it will clearly be a treat for a nationwide and worldwide audience to see a course hidden from public view for too long in Hutchinson.

Doak scale -- Sand Hills (9.5) / Prairie Dunes (8.75)

Hope this helps ...

[David Wigler]

Brad,

I wonder by the way you asked the question, did you really mean Southern Hills?  I am inferring that you did based on the comment, "Brothers, Cousins or not related."  Obviously, Prairie and Southern are both Maxwell's from the same era.  I am going to answer it as such.  If you meant Sand Hill's, I cannot comment, as I have not played it.  Both Prairie and Southern are absolutely world class but Southern Hills gets the slight nod in my book.  BTW, if you are going to the area to play them (They are a 90 minute drive if speed limits are not important to you - I did it in August) make sure to play Flint Hills National as well.  Flint Hills National is 30 minutes Southeast of Prairie Dunes and 60 minutes Northwest of Southern Hills.  It - along with Victoria National - is the best example out their of Fazio showing an artistic flair that is so lacking in much of his recent work (Except for #18, which the owner made him butcher).

Prairie is a really fun course.  If the term "Members Course" did not carry a negative connotation, it might be the best example of a Members Course I can think of.  You could play Prairie every day and find new things to love about the quirky short par fours, one of the five best sets of par three's anywhere in the US and absolutely world class greens.

Southern gets the nod in my book based on the challenges the course provides.  The greens are the equal of Prairie’s and the trees offer far more chances for creativity and recovery than Prairie’s "You hit it two feet into the prairie grass, reload it is a lost ball" feel.  Believe me, if you throw in Flint Hills, this is one of the best 54 hole two-day excursions anywhere.

[Brad Miller]

David, thanks for your comments, but I was talking about Sand Hills, not Southern Hills. The comment about brothers... was ment to address the "inland links" concept that seems to be "somewhat" similar between Sand Hills and PD. The concept of Members Course sits well with me as SFGC is one of my favorites and fits this bill well. Didn't realize that the other Maxwell gem was so close! Sounds like their is some good golf within 2 hours of all these places. How long does their season last? Regards, Brad

[Pat Diederich]

In reference to how long their seasons last, I can't tell you for sure on Prairie Dunes.  But the Sand Hill is only open from around June 15 to the end of September.  Plus they only allow 50 golfers a day which makes it very, very difficult to get on.

[Mark_Fine]

Like I said Matt, they are both close to 10's    

[David Wigler]

Brad,

This will be a long answer to your question on how long their season lasts.  Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes are very different clubs.  They have similar facilities and a similar golf course but that is about it.  Prairie is 35 minutes from the big city (If anyone would consider Wichita a big city) while Southern is in Tulsa.  Prairie’s membership cost is under $10k while Southern's is over $60k.  Prairie keeps their course open year round so that the serious golfers can play it.  I do not know what Southern's season is, but I would imagine it is different as well.  I believe Southern is a better golf course, but for the pure experience of playing golf, Prairie cannot be beat.

[Ran Morrissett]

The staggering thing about comparing PD and SH is that there isn't one indifferent hole among the 36. Hats off to Coore and Maxwell for spending so much time at each site getting the routing just right to the point where there could be no weak holes.

Both are filled with great variety and if anything, PD plays faster, firmer than Sand Hills, thanks to incredible job done by PD's Green Keeper Philip George. Still, if you want to split hairs (which is what this DG is for), I think SH enjoys a slight advantage of scale over PD, especially in regards to its wider fairways. Sam Snead's comment at PD of having to walk single file    does nothing for me.
 
An important distinction in the Doak scale occurs between those courses that are rated a 10 and those that are a 9 (i.e. the difference in overall quality between a courses that is a 4 and that which is a 3 is smaller). Much of it has to do with scale and width and playing angles and the corresponding strategy. Even granting that PD is most assuredly a world top 20 course, I can't quite give it the same 10 as I do Pine Valley and Sand Hills.

Cheers,

[Dan Kelly]

Could someone explain to me WHY Sand Hills is open for such a short season?

The Twin Cities golf season generally lasts from April 1-10 through October, usually into November, several years recently well into December. And our weather here is harsher than Mullen, Nebraska's.

[Brad Miller]

Ran, point well taken, I have always felt that a certain number of the worlds top lets say 8-12 golf courses that are Doak 9-10's are still that much better than the next 8-12, even the next couple. Give me a second to think up an example: ok, PV, CPC and Shinny vs SFGC. I love SFGC, but the 9 to 10 difference does not cut it. May need the 10 PLUS score to do a small handful their due justice.

[Paul Turner]

Ran

I don't agree that there's a large gap between 9 and 10.  When the courses are that good, it's just down to personal preference; it's not clear cut at all.

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

I am surprised by your comment. Do you have any examples in mind? Are you saying that all 9s and 10s are effectively of comparable quality and that the first perceptible break in quality comes at the next level (an "eight") or is it perhaps even later than that?

[Paul Turner]

Ran

Yes, I think for me, the break is probably at 8.  I find it difficult to discern between the 9 and 10s.  Portrush vs Ballybunion vs Sandwich (how did it get an 8 !?) vs Dornoch.  All pretty comparable to me.

I know I listed a Top 50 here, a year+ ago, but I couldn't recall it precisely now, I'm sure I'd reverse some 9 and 10s just because the precise order isn't set in stone for me.

Even Tom Doak's criteria for a 10, don't really wash:  "if you skipped even one hole you'd miss something worth seeing".  I can't see that's true for the links courses that he gives a 10 to.  All of them have a weak link or two.  But my guess is that the rest of the holes are so good he had to give them top marks.

[Gene Greco]

  Three years ago I was in Hutchinson for two days followed by several at The Sand Hills. I went with a member of Winged Foot who is also a member of Portrush, Ballybunion, Machrahanish and ten or so others around the world and the US.
    
    His demeanor at PD was one of quiet appreciation. When he arrived at the 1st tee at Sand Hills his only words for several minutes were, "THIS is it." He maintains Sand Hills as the greatest golf course in the world.

     It amazes me that anyone with a traditional sense and a purist's perspective of the game of golf, both attributes we find to be pervasive among those who participate on this site, can NOT give Sand Hills a 10. For the life of me, what holds one back from giving it the perfect score by .5? What could  it possibly lack or more likely what did you miss? To me, it is golfing perfection from an architectural perspective and most assuredly from the standpoint of an overall golfing experience.

      As Ran mentioned on a previous thread when bringing friends from abroad to Cypress Point their evaluation was,"This is incredible but Cypress Point is no Sand Hills."

       It stands to reason then that PD, though one of the finest tracks in the US, is not the world class layout that is The Sand Hills.  

       .    

[Tommy_Naccarato]

This is a perfect example of my good friend Bill Vostinak's analogy of "Blond, Brunette, Redhead." How do you compare such greatness or in this case, beautiful naturalness?

Catherine Deneuve

Lena Olin

Nicole Kidman

I have yet to be to either Sand Hills or Prarie Dunes and in due time this problem will be eleviated, as I'm trying to schedule a mid-west trip for the near future. A guy who I'm working with grew up in Hutchinson, Kansas and assures me that Prarie Dunes is everything I hope it to be. (RJ Daley, the guy that joined us at Barona.)

I would like to also add that half of Prarie Dunes is Maxwell Sr. and the other half, Maxwell Jr. Which there is little doubt that that half of it would have to be Press's best work ever when considering the rest of his body of work.

For those experieinced Press Maxwell players, how does his greens compare to the Old Man's? I still think that Gulph Mills #10 is one of the 3 greatest greens I have ever stepped-on.

And while we are at it, let me so verbose to even include Wild Horse in this discussion as it probably deserves the same recognition as the other two. Certainly we have to look at the way it was conceived--a total unselfish effort for it to ever be compared to The Sand Hills or Prarie Dunes.

Certainly their MUST be some accolades for that.

[mfouts]

I absolutely love this site and here goes with my first post so be kind.  I've been fortunate to have played five rounds at SH and over a 100 at PD.  In fact I'm leaving today at 3:00, driving 8 1/2 hours to Hutch tonight, playing 36 Saturday and driving back home.  Sick yes as my wife says but to play PD in January I'm on my way.  You will note by the rest of my post I am very partial to PD and I find it difficult to separate 9's from 10's.  I have always known that PD was one of my 5 favorites of all time. ( PD, RCDown,Portrush,Muirfield, and Seminole. SH makes my top 10, but given the choice for my final round in life it's PD every time.  I now have a top 6 as I played Pacific Dunes last Saturday.  WOW, but thats another post.
When I consider the differences of the two I try to take everything into consideration.  I know this is a site for architectural discussion but please bear with this rookies first post.  When I played SH, I fell in love with the site.  Hell it's Nebraska.  I grew up in Nebraska and it sure doesn't look like Nebraska.  When I was there Crenshaw was there for 2 days playing with friends from Texas.  He was leaving from SH to meet Watson and his son in Ireland for a week before competing in the British Open.  I got the opportunity to talk to Ben about his philosphy and inspiration for SH.  Unsolicited be brought up PD and said it was one of the finest in the world and part of his inpiration for SH.  You can't always trust what you read about someone but he is truly a gentleman.

SH has a great layout, great strategy, great bunkering and the experience is world class.  The differnce to me are the greens.  They are good but you have the ability to scramble, get up and down, and for me not a lot of three putts.  They are fair.
But on a peronal note the exclusiveness and the snobbery are not my cup of tea.  The welcome mat is very small.  I have 2 friend who are members at SH and I am not in the minority with this opinion.  SH is great but my preference is PD hands down. Why?

Every round at PD is an experience.  The course is open year round and I have played in every possible condition.  Sleet, Wind, Rain, I don't care, I always look forward to play PD.  The pro is one of the finest in the world, the super is world class, the members are extremely friendly, the staff is special and the course is a great test of golf.  What makes the course so different and tough are the greens.  Hands down they are the toughest I play every year.  I've seen grown men cry and question their sanity when playing PD.  You just don't get up and down.  I've never seen a round without a number of 3 putts.  They are tough, challenging and a blast to play.  For those that think it's not srategic or too short, next time play 13 & 14 form the blues.  They are not too short.  8 & 9 are two of the greatest par 4's.  17 may be the greatest par 5 I've ever played and 2 is a wonderful par 3.  (One of Crenshaws redesigned greens)  Crenshaw redesigned 3 greens on the front nine at PD.  In fact the former super at PD, who went to Baltimore CC and now works for Crenshaw still says PD has the finest test of greens around.  Tough consider this, in 1963 Nicklaus played a match against Palmer. ( remember par 70)  Palmer won with a 72 to Nicklaus 77 (with a 9 on #9).

PD has hosted Walker Cups, Curtiss Cups, US Sr. Amateur, US Womens Amatuer and the feedback from the participants and the USGA has been nothing short of what a true test of golf PD is. ( Dark horse,Julie Inkster won one of her US Womens amateurs at PD)

Tough, I play at PD on a routine basis with 20 guys, 10 who are out of town members, all USGA handicaps of 6-20.  PD is a minimum of 3-5 shots harder than any other course we play.
As hard as it is it is a pleasure and a joy to play everytime.

I'm sorry I rambled, I will keep shorter from now on.  Sand Hills is a great course, Crenshaw truly one of the good guys, but Prarie Dunes is my choice hands down.

Tommy, I love your posts and I would love to have you come play PD with me and my goofball friends.  Let me know.

[Brad Miller]

Mfouts, welcome! and thanks for the great post, PD sure sounds like a wonderful place. Is the rest of Hutchinson and its surrounds this enchanting?

[David Wigler]

mfouts,

Might I have been paired with you and your friends when I showed up at PD last summer?  Were several of them from Atlanta and one a prominent attorney from Council Bluffs?  If that was you, the hospitality was fantastic.  Thank You.

Your post actually is very interesting.  I have not played SH, so I cannot compare but you are right on PD's greens.  IMO hands down the best two par three greens in the US are #17 at Oakland Hills and #2 at PD.  That green is simply magical.  In fact, the green is so good you almost forget about the terrific approach shot that the hole requires.  I would love to see what the average score would be in a PGA Tour event if they played it from the Blue's and put the pin in the front right, like it was the day I played.  On other posts, we talk about average greens.  Playing PD would be a great education in what greens can be.

As for the club itself, I am not sure how much that relates to architecture but I clearly agree with you.  PD seems like one of those rare places where an absolutely world class golf course is housed by an absolutely unpretentious, down-home atmosphere.  

Out of curiosity, have you played Southern Hills?  If yes, do you agree with my assessment that the greens are slightly inferior (Although still world class) and the remainder of the course slightly superior?  Just curios.

I envy your next two days and cannot wait to get back.

[Evan Fleisher]

Mfouts,

A hearty welcome from me as well.  Enjoyed the post about PD, and I too have always been fascinated by this course (at least the idea and placement of it, since I have yet to play).

I have just started a new consulting project in Kansas City, and it appears that from there, I am only about four hours away from Hutch.  I was not aware that PD had year-round playing capabilty, but the thought of it is very encouraging and intriguing.

I also understand that PD offers reciprocal privileges, is this true?  I would love the opportunity to tack and extra day or so onto my business trip to KC and make the trek out there.  Any advice?  Please contact me, if you could (evan@efleisher.com) ...I would be very grateful.

[JayC]

mfouts-
Enjoyed your post on PD, also a favorite of mine.
Can you tell us any more about C&C's work there?  Which greens in particular and what was done?
I played with a member during my last visit that got to accompany Bill Coore during one of his site visits.
He came away amazed by his knowledge of Maxwell and the design intent at PD.
ps: Sorry to hear about your experience at SH.  Odd though, because I've played several times and have always come away with just the opposite impression.
  

[RJ_Daley]

mfouts,

for a first time poster, that one had SOUL!  I am sure you widened your circle of friends with observations like those.  

Perhaps a year or so ago, Golf Course Management had a feature on PD and in particular on the maintenance practices for winter golf there.   In watching the weather reports there for this week, it appears to be absolutely balmy!  

I think you have hit a couple of nails on the head in observations about the situation at SH.  I can't find "peronal" in the dictionary but if it means imperial or Peronista, relating to the ever dwindling opportunities for unescorted by a member play, I concur.  There may be tax status reasons for said new or strictly enforced policy, but I wish that Youngscap and the directorship would find a way to allow outside play for those who would make the pilgrimage.  Perhaps like Crystal Downs where the early and late season would allow a looser policy.  Due to the rediculous late opening at SH that is observed in mid to late May, I would wish that at least two or three weeks ahead of their late opening would be offered to those who would write requesting a play and would travel so far.  What are the chances that golf goofs would go to those lengths to play?  Surely, true afficianados that would make the journey would respect the course under those circumstances.  The real regretable aspect of GCA at its' highest form of study and appreciation is the near unattainable aspect of places like Cypress, PV, NGLA and now perhaps SH in that mix.  

As for the greens complexity, I will also go out on a limb here.  As you seem to be saying the greens at PD are more complex than SH, I will also say that Wild Horses may indeed also be more complex than SH.  Thus, I encourage you to go to Gothenburg and make that comparison to PD as I will make every effort to get access on PD to likewise make that comparison.  WH compared to PD facinates me.

[Gene Greco]

Yes, PD is a great golf course. The hospitality was unsurpassed. I was welcomed with open arms and treated like a member. The blossoming onion in the dining room was a special treat! Mfouts, I welcome you as well.

However......

I played Prairie Dunes with that prominent attorney from Council Bluffs who also happens to be a member of the Golf Week rating panel. Great guy, great player and we have since played together at the Maidstone. He is as passionate about PD (as is this group of 20 or so out of town members of Priarie Dunes are) as I am about SH - maybe to a fault on both our accounts! He spent much of the time telling me and my partner how great PD is (which we could see) and the rest explaining to us how inferior SH is to it. Seems this group was (and still is) a little miffed about not being the only great prairie links on the block anymore!      

He showed me his rating list he submitted to the magazine and he had PD #2 in the world and SH #62! A stacked rating!  NOW THAT'S JUST NOT RIGHT! An underground group of PD zealots is at work here! Don't buy into their propaganda!

Mfouts, tell our friend from Council Bluffs (who lives in Omaha) hello for me and also payback is a b-tch!

[Brad Miller]

Gene, maybe it's best to call them both 3 stars Still working on the other situation.