[Phil McDade]

Phil,
The front nine at MV is "Pete Dye light" compared to the rest of the facility--far less going on visually. I think its also got more width and its not as difficult as the rest of the courses. Given your comments previously I'm not surprised you like that better than I do. To be fair, I don't remember most of the front nine, except liking #2 and then the watery finish. I thought the ponds on 7, 8, and 9 were less attractive visually than the one on #4/15 River. #10 is particularly odd through the forest, #11 gets you out to the good stuff, and then the last seven holes are as good as anything at the resort.

Andy:

-- Odd that your defense of the River compared to MV should focus on visuals ("far less going on visually" on MV; "the ponds on 7, 8, and 9 were less attractive visually") you say are lacking on MV, when you suggest my criticism of the River is based mostly on visuals instead of how the holes play.
-- Your comments on this thread suggest you equate difficulty with quality. I assume you then view Mackenzie's Cypress Point as a lesser course than Dye's PGA Stadium West course, both well-known California courses. Is slope rating the best way to evaluate the architectural quality of a course?
-- What's so odd about a hole that runs through a forest? Many well-regarded courses have a variety of holes transitioning from one feature of the course to another, perhaps most notably the aforementioned Cypress Point. What about the architectural merits or demerits of the hole?

[Andy Troeger]

Phil,
I never claimed that visuals weren't important--but our preferences for visuals don't match. Aesthetics are very subjective. My reason for bringing them up was my lack of surprise that you think that the MV course is better than the River. It fits your visual preference and not mine, which affects both our overall opinions of the respective courses. That's far more important than any of us are willing to admit, myself included.

There are some wonderful courses that manage to be interesting while not being overly challenging for the professional golfer. For as much as folks say CPC is easy, the slope if I remember right is about 140. Its far from easy! I critique courses all the time for being too difficult--the best have a balance between creating a challenge for the better player without being ridiculous for the rest of us. The Valley Club of Montecito might be a better example than CPC of a course that doesn't rate especially high on resistance to scoring, but its still very interesting to play. Courses can fall too far on either side of that balance.

The challenge with courses that aren't difficult is to still create interest. Dye did that on a rather average level on the front nine at MV. There are some interesting features at times--its not awful. But we're comparing it to one of the best courses in the country at the same facility (IMO of course) so average doesn't cut it. I don't think we're going to get to Irish Course at Whistling Straits on this thread, but perhaps ironically that one has too much going on even for me and I think the finishing stretch especially gets carried away on difficulty.

The odd thing about the forest hole at MV is that (1) its probably got more trees on it than the other 17 holes combined and (2) it strikes me as a connection hole essentially to get back to the original portion of the course. Its an ok hole, but odd to use something so different just to get from one place to another. In looking at the routing I wonder if they had the option to get the front nine back to the clubhouse area so that they could have used the old 10th which sounded much more interesting. It looks like it might have been tough to fit #1 and #9 down there.

[Matt Kardash]

The River is simply better than MV because MV is quite simply just more boring...2nd nine excluded. Most of the front nine is just kinda average and unmemorable. You don't have to love the River course, but I do not think anyone in their right mind would say MV is better.
On the front 9 I think 8 is kinda underrated. I think the mound which obscures the right side of the green, forcing the player to focus on the water is a cool feature you don't see on par 3's.

[Phil McDade]

Matt:

MV has the best hole in the 36-hole complex, and two or three others among the best; the River has two of the worst. For that reason alone, I'd prefer playing MV over the River by a ratio of about 2:1.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt:

MV has the best hole in the 36-hole complex, and two or three others among the best; the River has two of the worst. For that reason alone, I'd prefer playing MV over the River by a ratio of about 2:1.

Which holes? I'm assuming that #4 and #14 River are the two of the worst? What are the best at MV and why?

[Adam Clayman]

I have to say that Phil has a very valid point. The original course was good because of many variables. One of it's strength's, like most great courses, resides on the back nine. Since the MV back nine is the original closing crescendo/climax, it is logical to conclude it has the best holes and therefore the best GOLF COURSE. Maybe not the best collection of holes. But a great collection can be sterile if there;s no cohesion to the whole.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
You're kidding right? That's an argument, but its surely not logical! You could conclude that MV received the better holes from the original and I would tend to agree. Stretching that to ignore the new holes and the way they were incorporated when evaluating the two new courses is a stretch. The MV course requires a cart ride to get to the first tee--that's not good flow or good cohesion

[Phil McDade]

Doesn't Sand Hills require such a ride as well?

[Adam Clayman]

Andy. I didn't call it great. I was pointing out Phil's apparent feelings and a possible reason for his conclusion. Clearly we evaluate on different planes. As much as you appear to value your own opinion, I'm open to new theories and justifications.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
I'm open to many new theories and justifications, just not most of yours    Just as you're not interested in mine. We'll agree to disagree.

[Joe Bausch]

Time to continue the Meadow Valleys tour.

You can play this dogleg right par 5 as a 3-shotter taking the safer route left off the tee.  If you play to the small fairway right, it basically becomes a straight hole and much shorter.



Green tee view:



Safe route drive leaves a view like the following (where I think if you get way left in the fairway you can see the green):



Approach shot view:



Short and left of the green:



From over the green:



Next is a neat little par 4 where you must choose your club and line carefully.  You need to be able to 'make a field goal' between the two sets of trees short of the green.



Green tee view:



Approach shot view if the tee shot is on a good line:



Looking back from left of the green:



From over the green:



The No 1 stroke hole at MV is this par 4 6th hole.



Green tee view:



Approach shot view from a drive that was left center:



Looking back from short and right of the green:



From well right of the very deep green:



From over the green:

[Joe Bausch]

The rest of the front nine at Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys today.  I'm a bit surprised there was no chatter on holes 4-6 posted yesterday.  They are pretty good, IMO.

The 7th is a fairway straightforward par 5 with of note a pot bunker to be avoided on the second shot.



View from the green tee:



Second shot view with the pot bunker front and center!



A closer look at the pot bunker:



Approach shot view:



From just short of the green:



From over the green:



The 8th is a challenging par 3 (No 13 stroke hole).



View from the green tee:



If you bail a bit on your shot right to avoid the water, the green runs off to the right like two of us ended up this day:



View from the hill on the way to the next tee:



The front nine finishes with a long par 4 with trouble all the way right.



View from the green tee:



Approach shot view:



From just left of the green:



From over the green:



Back nine starts tomorrow.

[Phil McDade]

Joe:

The lesser of the two nines at MV, I still think and agree with you that there are holes and shots of interest out there. I like the "touchdown/field goal" nature of the par 4 5th because it contrasts with much of the wide-open nature of the front nine. And Dye once again built a bunch of greens of interest -- the par 3 8th isn't one of my favorites, but it's redeemed by a good green site, some funky run-off areas as you mention, and the mounding that hides a portion of the green and what lies beyond for those playing away from the water. That centerline pot bunker on #7 as well adds a nice strategic element to the hole.

[Adam Clayman]

Joe, Once again, excellent pictorial. As for discussions about the stretch of holes 4-6, I agree they are solid holes. But, as you can see we have a serious chasm between one who believes it is boring, and one who doesn't see their (MV's) value. Phil and I could go back and forth agreeing, but that's no discussion. Plus, no discussion is often not indicative of anything other than there's no dissenting view.

It's becoming very apparent, in my understanding of how I view courses, which is different form others, that not each individual hole needs to be a world beater. As we will see coming up on the back nine at MV, not one hole is real world class standout as a great dramatic golf hole. But it is the combination of those holes, and their sequence, that makes them better than the sum of their parts.

[Phil McDade]

It's becoming very apparent, in my understanding of how I view courses, which is different form others, that not each individual hole needs to be a world beater. As we will see coming up on the back nine at MV, not one hole is real world class standout as a great dramatic golf hole.

Adam:

I think one of them is!

[Matt Kardash]

I enjoy the 8th hole. I think it is a neat twist on the water par 3. The 9th has a nice looking tee shot. The front nine of the MV course is a mixed bag.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, How dare you let the reality get in the way of my argument.
 I am such a fan of the 12th through the 16th holes that I didn't it want to cloud my argument. The closer over the river is a sick (good thing) butt puckerer.

For the record, The par 3 15th "Mercy" is a great hole. As is Natures course the 14th. To me the 14th is where Pete made his statement on the natural beauty of the entire site, when he forced the golfer to exit back towards the front of the green and that setting that lies between the 14th and 15th holes.

[Andy Troeger]

At the risk of being agreeable, I'll concede to thinking the 5th hole is pretty good--the chute feature is a nice change of pace from the openness of the rest of the holes. Along with the 2nd, it adds a little spice to the opening section of the course. I don't think there are any poor holes or features on the nine, just nothing overly special.

I think the back nine has a few great holes, with 14, 15, and 18 probably being the best among them. The 13th green is really cool, and 17 is a fun shortish three. The variety of holes in that stretch is tremendous as well. I do wonder if the course as a whole would be more fun, however, if the best stretch wasn't all in succession. Does the beginning stretch seem "dull" in comparison once you've seen the end because you are already thinking of what's to come? Not sure...just a thought.

Well done, Joe, on the pictorials of all the courses.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, With the diagonal carries, and the water close to play, I don't know if dull is the right word. In comparison, they may not be as good, but, it's a tall order to fill to have every hole, right out of the gate be an exciting experience. The ebb and flow of the course would dictate that the back nine hole really shine. Same was true in the original routing with holes 4, 5, 8 & 9 being rather benign.

[PCCraig]

I thought long and hard about the previous statement made by Phil that MV is a better overall golf course than the River course, and for a second I agreed with him. MV as a whole does have more of the feeling of an early Pete Dye design a la The Golf Club or Crooked Stick. Holes 2-6 on the front nine of MV are not as dramatic visually but are pretty darn good.

However 7-9 ruins that nine for me. So does the 10th hole of the MV course, which as Joe will show soon is one of the worst Pete Dye holes I've ever seen.  Even if holes 11-18 are the best, most natural holes on the property, those 4 are so blah/bad that the River Course wins out.

[Andy Troeger]

In fairness, the land for the front nine at MV appears to have been a flat meadow with a few trees in spots, so its not like Pete had a lot to work with in terms of creating interesting holes. "Dull" perhaps isn't the best word, but even the water holes are just adequate--certainly nothing unique even to Dye's own design portfolio.

Adam--I don't think there's ANY comparison between those holes on the River and these MV holes, personally. The worst of those on the River is still more interesting to me than 1, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10. Perhaps that's why I don't this exercise is even a competition--there are 7 holes on the MV side that don't hold a candle to the River, and only one on the River (13) that I think has some significant tree issues. The best stretch on the MV absolutely is as good as any stretch on the River--it just can't overcome the rest.

[Joe Bausch]

What many people feel is a very fine back nine at Meadow Valleys starts with a hole that doesn't quite fit IMO, a short dogleg right par 4 coming out of the woods.  For the upcoming US Women's Open in 2012, their first hole of the composite course uses the 10th green of MV, but comes at it from a much different angle.  It is 348 yards with the tee box across the river.  That hole is in purple below:



As configured for MV currently, it is a tight tee shot, nothing more really than 200 yards or so.



Green tee view:



Approach shot view:



Looking back to the fw from long and left of the green:



This view from right of the green shows how the hole plays in the Women's US Open:



Now the back nine really begins. 

The dogleg-left par 5 11th:



Green tee view:



Second shot view:



My 3rd shot came from the left rough:



From over the green:



One of my favorite holes on this course is the 12th, a slight dogleg-left par 4 (the No. 2 stroke hole):



Green tee view:



Approach shot view:



There is a large gulley maybe 85 yards short of the green:



A bunkerless green:



A grass bunker left, and that sign directs those walking the course to a nice trail down to the 13th tee:



From left of the green looking back to the fairway:



More good holes coming tomorrow!

[Carl Nichols]

What are peoples' thoughts about the first hole of the Composite Course?  I thought it was/is a very good hole, with a cool tee shot and very interesting and demanding second shot.  But as a first hole, it seemed a little too difficult, especially for a resort course where that might be the first hole of the trip -- of the 8 guys who were in our two groups, most of whom are decent golfers, only one hit the green in reg.

[Phil McDade]

Carl:

I've never thought it that hard, played off the proper tees. I recall it as not being that long, so you'd have a 7-iron at most to the green, and although it's a pretty big ridge to carry, 7-iron at most doesn't seem to me to be that onerous in terms of getting a second shot up and over that ridge.

I've heard that complaint, too. I'm not convinced it's too difficult -- but it does require a tee shot over water, to a target that narrows the closer you get to the ideal landing zone (which, given the nature of the second shot, most folks want as much length off the tee as they can get), with a blind approach shot, to a funky green with alot of potential for run-offs, the way Dye designed it. That's a lot of stuff going on, admittedly, but I don't think of it as a back-breaker.

[Joe Bausch]

What are peoples' thoughts about the first hole of the Composite Course?  I thought it was/is a very good hole, with a cool tee shot and very interesting and demanding second shot.  But as a first hole, it seemed a little too difficult, especially for a resort course where that might be the first holes of the trip -- of the 8 guys who were in our two groups, most of whom are decent golfers, only one hit the green in reg.

Carl, just looking at it from the green, that uphill approach shot sure appears challenging to a small green.  But it should just be a short iron with the hole being rather short.

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