[Joe Bausch]

Last three holes at Blackwolf River this morning.

The 16th is a scenic par 5.



View from the green tees:



Here's a tree along the river that I like.  Go figure!   



From short of the green:



This bunker right of the green sees plenty of action:



From the back of the green:



Par 3 17th:



View from the green tees:



From short of the green:





The 18th is a dogleg-left par 4.



View from the green tees (I think this waste area left used to have grass islands throughout):



Approach shot view:



That waster bunker left runs all the way to the green:



From short of the green:



From just right of the green, which is shared with the 18th green of the Meadow Valleys course:



From over the green:



That's it for the BWR River tour.  If you wish to view all 141 pictures in larger size (1400 pixels wide), go here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/BlackwolfRunRiver/index.html

Next up:  the sister course at Blackwolf Run, Meadow Valleys.

[Matt Kardash]

I like this course quite a bit, but the most dissapointing hole to me is #17. To me it seems like a very blah hole...and I especially don't think a par 3 with a green had against a man-made pond was really needed after all the preceeding holes along the river. I think something else should have been done here. It's by no means a terrible golf hole, but I just don't think the course calls for this hole at this point.

[Phil McDade]

Aside of the horrificly placed cart path fronting the tees, I've always liked 16 -- to me, one the best holes on the River Course. Why? Because Dye doesn't try to do too much here -- his S-shaped routing of the hole follows the natural turn of the terrain in this part of the course, and he places his green -- a good-sized one -- hard against the river's edge. To me, this is good strategy (and I think the lone tree here works, although it wouldn't kill me if they cut it down, too) -- Dye gives the aggressive player a chance of landing on the green in two, and tempts him to do so because of the downhill nature of the second shot. But the player must be aware of the river left, and the confident bunker player can play away from the river with his second shot if he thinks he can negotiate an up-and-down out the back bunker. And he provides a relatively stress-free corridor for the more conservative player who takes a traditional three-shot approach to this hole. And it's aesthitically pleasing -- those rolls and bumps on the left side of the fairway in the second photo may be manufactured a bit, but they are in keeping with the gently rolling terrain there. A solid hole with some viable options on how to play.

17 has never bugged me as much as 4; I think it's a solid par 3, requiring the player to hit a draw into another decent-sized green. Nothing wrong with that. It's a tough, demanding par 3 at the end of the round -- a trademark for Dye. And it's a very good green.

18 is pretty good as well; I think they flooded that entire waste bunker for the US Women's Open held here a while back. I still prefer the death-and-glory second shot over the river on the original championship course here.

See, I can be non-venomous.

[Andy Troeger]

Phil,
I think we actually agree on the last three holes    I do like the Meadow Valleys finisher a lot though--its certainly memorable.

[Adam Clayman]

Whoever mentioned the left to right, with water on the right, propensity, is further proof of how the new config lacks the variety of the original. From #'s 10, 11, 12, 13, + 14 is correct. Also 16 is a great hole but as a finishing stretch, 14 17 + 18 make for a better middle of the course than finishers.

[Andy Troeger]

There's certainly an argument to be made about the dogleg rights in the middle of the course. I don't think the holes are especially similar, however. #9 is a driveable par four with lots of options, #8 and 11 are par fives but I would argue that #8 is the go-for-it hole and #11 one where taking your medicine is more appropriate. #14 is really designed as a position hole, and #10 and 13 are par threes. I don't see #12 as a dogleg right.

#14 and #18 on the Meadow Valleys course were also par fours turning right with water on the right, and #16 is also a dogleg right hole with a huge bunker right (with #15 and 17 being par threes), so I think the impact on variety is pretty minimal.

The one nice thing about the original configuration would have been less water in play, but those holes tend to have some severe banks/hazards that do the job just as well. Plus the water on the original design tended to be the "artificial" ponds and hazards that still exist.

[Phil McDade]

Andy:

"The one nice thing about the original configuration would have been less water in play, but those holes tend to have some severe banks/hazards that do the job just as well."

Water is always more penal than bunkers. It's one of the reasons I find both Lawsonia and Milwaukee CC much more appealing than the River Course, because both of those courses expertly use bunkering to force decisions on golfers and penalize the poor or indifferent shot without a reload. Dye just hammers the golfer with water on the River course

[PCCraig]

I really like the 16th at BWR-River, and really don't like the 17th (which to me looks right out of FL, and doesn't fit with any of the property's 36.5 holes.

[Andy Troeger]

Phil,
Generally agreed with a few exceptions (#10 at Pine Valley comes to mind), but I didn't explain well that I didn't mean bunkers. I was thinking the steep grass-strewn slopes on #15 and 17 on the MV course. They are probably still easier recoveries than water/drops, but in some ways have the potential for bigger numbers with lost balls, unplayable situations, poor golfer choices, etc.

Unfortunately I played Lawsonia and Milwaukee when both were soft. Given those conditions, there really was little penalty for reasonable misses unless one got unlucky or too aggressive. I could see how the angles would come into play in firmer conditions and think both are excellent, but its a personal preference thing whether you prefer erring on the side of too tough or "too playable" if there is such a thing. I think Blackwolf is tough, but also gives the golfer ample opportunity to play safely away from the water.

[Phil McDade]

Interesting article today in the Madison paper about turf-grass issues and rehab at both Blackwolf Run courses:

http://host.madison.com/sports/golf/article_4afc678c-acd6-11e0-8ef3-001cc4c03286.html

[Adam Clayman]

16 on MV is a straight hole. Where did you get a dog right, Andy?  Ythe point was not about the water being on the right, the point has always been about the flow of holes and the inherent variety in the original route. Plus the beauty with the heroic finish. Now, there's less beauty less variety and no heroic shot to finish.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
Perhaps it depends on tee you play, but the tees being angled well off the to the right turns a relatively straight fairway into a dogleg right tee shot on #16. Its not a huge degree, but its most definitely there.

http://www.americanclubresort.com/golf/bwr/valleys_detail.html

I'll give you the 18th at MV is a better hole and prettier than the finisher at the River. The 14th might also be the best hole at the resort. Beyond that I think the argument is shaky at best. If you think there's less beauty though in the new River holes then I give up--that part's not even close IMO. I think there's an argument either way on the variety debate--especially since the old #10 sounded interesting. The issue for the River to me is more that the holes from the original that were left were not the better ones, save 16 and perhaps the last two. I still think the last three holes are of very high quality, however. I'm not sure if a routing could have merged the new holes with the other nine, but that would be quite a golf course.

[Kris Shreiner]

Those white caddie suits photograph well. Pathetic.

Joe,

Thanks for the pics and thoughts. It will be interesting to see how those top ams assault EH, to say nothing of the pros.
What were the green speeds like at EH and how was the fescue holding up?

Cheers,
Kris

[Phil McDade]

Kris:

I think Erin Hills has the potential to play very tough -- but, the key word is potential. Re. the greens, with only a few exceptions (notably #3, and perhaps #2, which is a minature version of a Pinehurst #2 green), I didn't see any greens at EHills that rival the slopes and contours you find at the Blackwolf Run courses. To me, that means they'll have to really push the green speeds at EHills to make them a challenge -- a lot of the greens there are medium-sized, with two distinct tiers.

But if EHills plays fast-and-firm, I can see folks have trouble out there, because the traps there are really menacing and difficult, and getting a ball into the fescue will usually lead to a stroke loss. One of the things about EHills -- noted by others, but worth repeating -- is the great elasticity of the course; a number of holes can be set up to play at a variety of yardages, and you can easily have specific holes playing at 100 yards difference on different days of the tournament. That can lead, I think, to golfers being uncomfortable there, because they can't attack the hole the same way day after day.

I think one of the real interesting things about the Amateur is the difference between the two qualifying courses -- EHills and Blue Mound. I can't really think of two courses that are at wider ends of the golfing spectrum in the demands they make on the player.

[SL_Solow]

Shivas;  I understand that Herb Kohler has commissioned the plaque.

[Carl Nichols]

Shivas:
Do you remember where/when you first started using the cheater line? 

[Phil McDade]

Dave:

My most significant objection to the 4th at the River is aesthetics -- I think it's a hole with a an awful look. Runway tee, to a long, narrow green, with a man-made pond and those out-of-place white rocks lining the entire right side of the hole. The hole has demands -- hit a short shot straight, or bail left as you say and be faced with a tough up-and-down. Given all of Dye's other mound-building on that course, I think this is one place where he could've justified a big, built-up tee, to a shot down below, which would be better aesthetically, and also make the player account for length (make it a one-club-less teeing mound at the very least) and perhaps more exposure to the wind. Kind of like Beverly's 6th, where that tee sitting on a ridge line with the green below really makes the golfer think about the wind and its impact on club selection.

[Joe Bausch]

Time to start up the sister course at Blackwolf Run called Meadow Valleys (also a Pete Dye design).

The routing from a 2010 Google aerial:



MV eases you into the round with a fairly benign par 4.



Green tee view:



With this day's left pin, the hole was an easy starter in this approach shot view:



From just short of the green:



View from the #2 tee box:



The 2nd at MV is a bit tougher par 4 with an elevated, shallow green.



Green tee view:



The ball up and to the right is a very good drive:



From right of the green:



From the front left part of the green showing up-and-down from short and left is a tall task:



On the 3rd hole, a par 3, you tee off from an area tucked within some evergreens:



Green tee view:



Two views from over the green:





More later.

[Andy Troeger]

The 2nd on the MV course is a pretty decent hole, but otherwise the front nine takes awhile to get going...actually I'm not really sure it ever gets going. The last seven holes make the round worthwhile. Not terrible, mind you, just not at the level of the rest of the facility.

[Phil McDade]

Andy:

 MV's the better of the two courses.

Especially the back nine.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, Re The 4th;
 yes, it's an unsightly hole, BUT, you have to put in context. It was 1988. It sits in front of the clubhouse. It's Herb Kohler.

 When 4 was followed by the current 14th, the duo of holes made some sense. Now, 9 holes apart, there is no relevance.

Do they still have the white swans in the pond? Used to make us laugh. We told everyone they were mechanical.

[Phil McDade]

Phil, Re The 4th;
 yes, it's an unsightly hole, BUT, you have to put in context. It was 1988. It sits in front of the clubhouse. It's Herb Kohler.

 When 4 was followed by the current 14th, the duo of holes made some sense. Now, 9 holes apart, there is no relevance.

Do they still have the white swans in the pond? Used to make us laugh. We told everyone they were mechanical.

Adam:

That's a good point about the connection -- and now disconnect -- between #4 and #14; don't know about the white swans.

I also lament the loss of the old #1 (or maybe it was #10?) hole that had the abrupt uphill second shot up to that ridge line that took you out to the valleys portion of MV. I like those kind of transitional holes, and again it was Dye not trying to do too much, but using a good natural feature instead of creating one.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, I know that hole as #10. I played there in 89' for the first time, and admittedly, it was late in their first season. But, I still find it extremely hard to believe the course ever started on that hole. As has been rumored on this site. Especially since they had fancy hole markers, and yardage books. Not to mention how great the flow was.

That green was one of the funnier jokes Pete has ever made. It was so steep, and when you climbed the wall and your eyes reached the precipice, you were greeted with the flattest green I have ever seen. The current green has undulations and is 34' feet lower than the original.

[Andy Troeger]

Phil,
The front nine at MV is "Pete Dye light" compared to the rest of the facility--far less going on visually. I think its also got more width and its not as difficult as the rest of the courses. Given your comments previously I'm not surprised you like that better than I do. To be fair, I don't remember most of the front nine, except liking #2 and then the watery finish. I thought the ponds on 7, 8, and 9 were less attractive visually than the one on #4/15 River. #10 is particularly odd through the forest, #11 gets you out to the good stuff, and then the last seven holes are as good as anything at the resort.

[Adam Clayman]

The Alps-like hole on the front at MV was an excellent hole. What is it? #4. There's a couple of real butt puckerer shot demands on that side, too.

I think Phil's point is that the nine is better than most give it credit for. Diagonal cross carries, the standard Pete water laden par 3, and that par 5 with water, just before it, and the par 4 after it.

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