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Greg Tallman

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World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« on: June 04, 2011, 04:16:07 PM »
Hard to to dtermine what can and cannot be driven these days but let's Tom's 350 as the cutoff... so great 4's from 350-385 or so

14 at Muirfield Village?
 
I would humbly submit our own 14th at Cabo del Sol Ocean as a very, very good one

17 at Oakmont (not INTENDED to be drivable)

Others
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Chris Cupit

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 04:34:39 PM »
#9 at The Honors Course is very good.  The green was reshaped a long time ago which helped and a tree that used to be on the front right edge of the green finally died.  Again, a very nice hole.  Maybe 360 yards.

I also like Dye's other short par four at The Honors--#12.  Tricky driving hole and a unique green and genuinely scary front right stacked sodd bunker.  Maybe 355 yards.

My course's 13th hole is 370.  Very straight hole with fairway sloping slightly right to left.  Easy to drive it into the left rough and you then have a second shot to a green with a HUGE false front.  Right center of fairway is most level and gives better angle as you can come down more of the length of the green.  Fairway bunker on right side of fairway from 260-285 off the tee.  No greenside bunkers and yet a devil of a second shot.

View of the side of the green:


View from about 80 yards out on left side of fairway.  The pot bunkers are about 65 yards short of the green and positioned left center of the fairway.  If a bigger hitter isn't careful he COULD drive into one of these although I have only seen one or two people do that as the drive is slightly uphill.  More likely the left center "target" fools a player as balls landing on that line as opposed to challenging the right bunker/right side of fairway, will kick into the left rough ;)

 

Others:
#9 Winged Foot East  (I like this slight dogleg left with its really cool green far more than the more famous 10th hole which to me was a boring straight away tee shot to a green that without the famous Elm, is pretty blah.

#17 NGLA
#1 Camargo ( I know #3 is the "more famous" short hole but I really love #1 green for some reason.
#1 Peachtree GC
#11 Muirfield
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 08:30:29 PM by Chris Cupit »
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Bill Brightly

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 04:36:50 PM »
Pine Valley #8
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Alex Miller

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 04:43:33 PM »
Olympic 18
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Tom_Doak

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 05:11:34 PM »
There are a lot of holes under 350 yards that wouldn't be considered drivable, and in fact, may never have been driven at all.  The seventh at Crystal Downs would be one of many examples.

This category is what the ODGs used to call "drive and pitch" holes, and there are many many candidates, few of which really stand out rom the pack.  If I had to pick just one as being truly distinctive, I might well pick the 2nd hole at Pine Valley.  [The 8th is only 325 yards, unless they've built a new tee since I last saw it.]  There is no real strategy ... you have to hit a straight drive or face serious consequences, and you don't want to back off with an iron from the tee, because the uphill pitch is brutal, and you have to keep your second shot below the hole.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 05:12:04 PM »
8 at CPC.  An absolutely brilliant golf hole.
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Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 05:45:25 PM »
I will include one that remarkably I have seen driven, the 5th at Royal Portrush.  Although it weighs in at about 375 on the card, the elevated tee and the extremity of the dogleg (and the possibility of a very favorable wind) means that it is sometimes drivable for the big hitters.  However, in general I would not call it a driveable hole and as such should be a strong contender for the title of "world's best non-drivable short par 4".
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 09:14:46 PM »
MacKenzie's 14th hole at New South Wales is the best in Australia.
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Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 09:20:09 PM »
Still not sold on 8 at CPC. Any other course and I think it might get panned a bit.

3 at Prairie Dunes.
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 09:58:43 PM »
Quote from: Chris Cupit on June 04, 2011, 04:34:39 PM
#9 at The Honors Course is very good.  The green was reshaped a long time ago which helped and a tree that used to be on the front right edge of the green finally died.  Again, a very nice hole.  Maybe 360 yards.

I also like Dye's other short par four at The Honors--#12.  Tricky driving hole and a unique green and genuinely scary front right stacked sodd bunker.  Maybe 355 yards.

My course's 13th hole is 370.  Very straight hole with fairway sloping slightly right to left.  Easy to drive it into the left rough and you then have a second shot to a green with a HUGE false front.  Right center of fairway is most level and gives better angle as you can come down more of the length of the green.  Fairway bunker on right side of fairway from 260-285 off the tee.  No greenside bunkers and yet a devil of a second shot.

View of the side of the green:


View from about 80 yards out on left side of fairway.  The pot bunkers are about 65 yards short of the green and positioned left center of the fairway.  If a bigger hitter isn't careful he COULD drive into one of these although I have only seen one or two people do that as the drive is slightly uphill.  More likely the left center "target" fools a player as balls landing on that line as opposed to challenging the right bunker/right side of fairway, will kick into the left rough ;)

 

Others:
#9 Winged Foot East  (I like this slight dogleg left with its really cool green far more than the more famous 10th hole which to me was a boring straight away tee shot to a green that without the famous Elm, is pretty blah.

#17 NGLA
#1 Camargo ( I know #3 is the "more famous" short hole but I really love #1 green for some reason.
#1 Peachtree GC
#11 Muirfield


Get out of here Chris!!!  >:( 

13 at Rivermont is the bane of my existence.  I've parred it once in maybe 25-35 plays.  AHHHHH!!!!!!!!   :'(
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

jonathan_becker

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 10:06:07 PM »
12 at Seminole 367 yards

My favorite part of the hole is how the green sits at an angle and plays smaller than it's actually size.  It's probably due to the cross winds and multiple bunkers surrounding the green that are just waiting to collect mishits.  It's a tough approach for such a short shot.
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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 10:35:25 PM »
Quote from: Mac Plumart on June 04, 2011, 09:58:43 PM


Get out of here Chris!!!  >:( 

13 at Rivermont is the bane of my existence.  I've parred it once in maybe 25-35 plays.  AHHHHH!!!!!!!!   :'(

Yeah but after your routine birdie on #11 you have a "cushion" :D
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 11:05:27 PM »
G Tallman, how about we take a trip to the Continent, where there are plenty of things that come up short, fer instance Eurotrash, eurodollars, and the hideous Eurovision Song Contest?

But yay though she's short as the crow flies across the scorer's card, the 16th at Ravenstein Old, a 307- meter lovely, stands tall, or ought to, on any list of manly short holes.

The best angle in is on the left side, where two nasty bunkers await.  220 meters to the front of the front bunker; 250 to the back of the back.  So basically your second shot difficulty is determined by your willingness to challenge those bunkers with the play club.

To recap: the manly approach is a la gauche. Thar's nae skirt wearin on th' sinister side!
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Gene Greco

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2011, 03:22:04 AM »
  #13 at Shinnecock Hills

Adam Messix, Do you concur?

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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2011, 07:08:11 AM »
10 at Shinnecock ain't to shabby either.

Don't sleep on 16 at Askernish.

5 at Cuscowilla oops.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 01:46:50 PM by Mac Plumart »
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Cory Lewis

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2011, 08:05:50 AM »
I've always been fond of the 13th at #2.  With the restoration it's even more strategic now.
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George Freeman

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2011, 10:52:54 AM »
#2 at Oakmont.

They weren't driving that back in the 2007 US Open, were they?
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"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2011, 10:54:02 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on June 04, 2011, 05:11:34 PM
There are a lot of holes under 350 yards that wouldn't be considered drivable, and in fact, may never have been driven at all.  The seventh at Crystal Downs would be one of many examples.

This category is what the ODGs used to call "drive and pitch" holes, and there are many many candidates, few of which really stand out rom the pack.  If I had to pick just one as being truly distinctive, I might well pick the 2nd hole at Pine Valley.  [The 8th is only 325 yards, unless they've built a new tee since I last saw it.]  There is no real strategy ... you have to hit a straight drive or face serious consequences, and you don't want to back off with an iron from the tee, because the uphill pitch is brutal, and you have to keep your second shot below the hole.

Tom, is #5 at CD drivable?  If not (for 95% of the world), that too would be a candidate.
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Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2011, 01:37:44 PM »
The yardage may be just over the parameters I threw out but #15 at Grandfather is a wonderful shortish par 4... Maybe about 390?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2011, 03:48:25 PM »
Quote from: George Freeman on June 05, 2011, 10:54:02 AM

Tom, is #5 at CD drivable?  If not (for 95% of the world), that too would be a candidate.


George:

As far as I know, it's never been driven.  You would have to carry it about 310 yards over the big bunker and the native rough behind it, get a good first bounce out of the first cut of rough, and then have the ball stop pretty quickly since most of the green is going away from you on that angle!  It sure isn't likely to start happening on a regular basis!

The other three short 4's at the Downs [#7, #15, and #17] are all potentially drivable now; I saw Ian Baker-Finch get close to all three of them when he came up to play a few years back.  But, you can make 5 or 6 trying to get home in one, also.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 03:50:13 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Carl Nichols

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 05:12:33 PM »
Mac-
5 at Cuscowilla is definitely driveable. Great hole, but driveable.
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BCrosby

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2011, 08:42:52 AM »
#3 at ANGC.

#5 at Cuscowilla is drivable. But #12 at Cusco is not and should get a nod here.

You don't appreciate how good #13 is at Rivermont until you've butchered it.

Bob
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Philippe Binette

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2011, 11:18:31 AM »
the Pit 13th at North Berwick west links
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Mac Plumart

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Re: World's Best Non-Drivable* Short Par 4's
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2011, 12:54:47 PM »
You don't appreciate how good #13 is at Rivermont until you've butchered it.


 :)
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Anthony Butler

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3 Mackenzie 4's
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2011, 01:35:38 PM »
#14 NSWGC. #5 The Valley Club.  #16 at Pasatiempo.
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