Which modern architect builds the best greens?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

I'm not talking about their business plan, I'm talking about the golf course on the property!  

I'm not the one who said we should cut Tom Fazio slack on his lifeless greens there because the course was built to patronizingly just entice the average hack with no understanding of architecture.  (well, that's not what you said, but it's what you meant, I believe)

You're the one who brought up the idea of expectations, suggesting that all of us should have lower expectations simply because the course is a public venue and slow play will result.   I simply tried to offer the countering argument that, in fact, their "mission statement" seems to imply that they are creating something in the modes of the greatest golf courses in the world.

Speaking of slow play, how about the routing that has one going all over God's creation to find the next tee box, in some cases climbing back up the same hill you just came down so that another framed view of the Philly skyline is visible?  

[Tom Doak]

I don't mind a green where you can putt off on occasion.  In fact, the last time I drove Ben Crenshaw over to Crystal Downs, he said on the way that on all the really best greens, there was some fear of putting off the green.

I've seen people putt off every single green at Crystal Downs, and I don't even play it that much.

HOWEVER, I don't think you should build greens where there is no other good option but to tap the putt and watch it roll off.  And, if you're going to build a green someone might putt off, you ought to give them some reasonable opportunity to play below the hole and chip or putt from there.

The first green at Sand Hills?  I've heard people talk of similar experiences to Mark's, but I haven't played it enough to know if there are other mitigating factors.  Certainly, the wind and the tilt combined make it dangerous -- and the fact that anything short of the hole on the approach will roll back down the fairway is not a good complement to that difficulty.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Let me put those greens at Pine Hill into proper perspective.  Unless Rees made a lot of changes, those greens at Pill Hill have more movement and undulation and are more interesting then the greens at The Black at Bethpage!  Why did Tillinghast (who we know can build great greens) do what he did at The Black?
Mark

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark Fine:

It's been eight years since I played the Black.  I really only remember one green (#17).  Overall, the course is awesome, but if my memory serves me, I agree that Tillinghast did nothing special with the greens.  At least not compared to say Fazio's Hartefeld National greens.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Perhaps we should at least pause to answer each other's questions before continually changing the topic.  

It's been a few years since I've played Bethpage, but I can clearly remember interest in around 8 of the greens.  At Pine Hill, which I played last summer, I remember the 1st, and that's it.  

Oh that any part of the rest of PH was nearly as good as BB!

[Mark_Fine]

Wait a minute Mike.  I think you still owe me a few answers  

Why do you think Fazio didn't build greens like Pine Valley's at Pine Hill?  Did you respond to this one?  Maybe he forget what he did at PV's Short Course  

Why did Pete build what he built at Eagle Pines?  

Why did Doak build what he calls a resort course at Pacific Dunes?  

I last played the Black four years or so ago and I can remember every green - they're all flat circles    I recall walking away saying to myself, "It's pretty obvious to me why they still haven't gotten the Open.  It's the flat greens!  The pros would have a field day and the USGA would hate that!"  

Pine Hill's greens are not that aweful Mike.  What Doak rating do you give the course?  I told you I put it around a 5+.
Mark

[GeoffreyC]

There was a discussion back a ways that I was going to reply to but I've been away for a few days and this is as good a place as any.

I've played the Black about 60 times so I have a good idea about the greens.  I agree with what Mark posted in the other discussion and I've posted this same thought several times in the past.

Greens at BB

#1- slope on the front section but the back level is flat
#2- FLAT
#3- flat but set at an interesting angle
#4- FLAT
#5- FLAT - sorry Matt but this to me is an uninteresting green at the end of a GREAT hole.
#6- FLAT
#7- FLAT
#8 great contours back right pin is tough
#9- FLAT
#10 FLAT
#11- good contouring. this is more like TIllinghast
#12- wonderful slopes. YOu can putt off this green
#13- not great but still interesting putting
#14- Matt this green has a LOT of back to front slope.  Don't miss long
#15- The best green on the course at the end of the hardest par 4 I know of. Prediction- 4.5 scoring average.
#16- another excellent green
#17- one of the best on the course. A bit like the 3rd green at Fenway
#18- OK

THe back 9 certainly has more interest around the greens then the front 9. About 1/2 the greens are simply DULL.

There are simply too many places on flat greens where recovery and par is likely even from high rough. There is too little short game interest at BB except for those great bunkers. I don't care how fast they are as long as they can dial in their speed and not have to contend with severe slopes they will be able to putt lights out (see Bob Hope Classic) and they will be able to dial in chips and pitches as well.  Someone will be on their game that week and shoot a low number. Wind and hopefully dry conditions all week could protect the scoring.

Several years back Golf Digest's asked for readers rankings and comments in their places to play supplement.  My comment on BB was used.  It said "BB is Tillinghast's finest tee to green.  If only everyone else would stay away."  I stand by that comment (It's still impossible to get a tee time for a 4some).  If BB had the old pine valley look and a set of Fenway's greens it would be in the top 10 replacing Winged Foot West and SFGC as Tillie's best.

[Mike_Cirba]

Hahaha...ok Mark

In answer to your questions;

1) I can't answer the question fully, not having played The Short Course.  I've heard mixed reactions to it, frankly.  But, assuming the greens there do justice to the original course, I would have to assume that either he personally believes that public course golfers do not deserve his best efforts, the owner asked him to make them totally devoid of interest, or a much less-qualified associate actually was responsible for the work.

2) I've played Osprey Ridge and not Eagle Pines at Disney.  The greens at Osprey are pretty good and challenging, and it's a very good Tom Fazio course.  I would have loved to have seen Pine Hill with challenginig greens and holes quite that good.  In the case of Eagle Pines, I'd simply assume that Dye was either interested in doing something different (the lowkey Pinehurst look), or was asked by the owners to create something more fun than intimidating for the resort course.  Funny thing that they didn't ask Fazio to do the same, because the Osprey course is pretty tough.  Incidentally, BillV was just mentioning to me the other day that he thought Eagle Pines was a blast, so maybe it succeeds on the "fun" quotient.

3) I haven't played Pacific Dunes yet (this year, hopefully), but I haven't heard anyone come back complaining that it's too easy.  This, after TONS of discussion here and elsewhere.  I KNOW that I've heard no one complain that it lacks interest in any part of the game.  

What Doak rating what I give Pine Hill.  

Well, there we agree.  It's a 5, but they were shooting for 8 or more.

That's the problem.

[redanman (Guest)]

Seeing my name mentioned above, I did say that Eagle Pines was a blast.  I have also said that Osprey Ridge was every bit as good although not as photogenic as Black Diamond (The prototypic Calendar Course) which continues to astound me as one of the most over-rated courses in America.

Mark, I too have Pine Hill at a Doak 5.  I looked really really hard that day, Mike and I had the course literally to ourselves and went back and replayed some holes, played more than one shot from tees fairways and I always putt the ball to other parts of greens where the pin isn't, so it wasn't a casual look by any means.

As for the first question Mike addressed, I can't comment on that course, either.


To the original point of the thread.......

If one can judge by Legacy Ridge in Westminster, CO, either Keith Foster or Art Hills depending on what you have learned can build an awesome set of greens. I am still not sure who to credit for those greens.  Keith put his name on nearby Buffalo Run in Commerce City, CO, but those greens are not inthe same league and that course is technically a muni that can play almost 7600 yds, so that may explain the difference.  Foster is the architect of record on site for Legacy, one of the best 16 hole courses anywhere.

[Matt_Ward]

GeoffreyC:

Excellent and insightful analysis on the Black from someone, like myself, who has played the course numerous of times in order to really understand the layout.

Geoffrey you say that seven of the holes are flat and I say there are six -- I still like the 5th because the angle to the target (ditto like the 3rd) and the manner in which the green is defended make for an interesting hole even if the green is relatively flat. Let's just say we agree to disagree.

Like yourself, I agree, the deeper you get into the round the more the greens begin to take on a more challenging demeanor. You are absolutely right on a some of the greens being places where you can putt off -- the 8th is no piece of cake, ditto the 11th, even the 14th, as you previously mentioned.

AND, the cream of them all -- the Darth Vader of all long par-4's the 15th. To me, there is no more a demanding long iron approach than 15 for most of the pros who will play. For Tiger and the big boys it may be a short iron if they nail the tee shot. If you don't hit the fairway you can just about write down 5 or more on this hole.

I've played it with the new tee and after I nail a really solid tee shot I'm left with a shoft iron (ranges from 7-iron to 9-iron depending upon the wind. Still, you must be superbly precise in where you land the shot. Miss in just about any position and you're deader than Elvis.

One last thought Geoffrey -- when you say the pros will be dialing in just keep in mind the wide fairways you and I usually encounter will be tournament width of 25-30 yards. The Bethpage hay is probably some of the toughest rough I've ever played in the metro NY area with the exception of SH. When the ball goes in it can be like the Bermuda triangle -- you never come out. As far as green side recoveries you're right on a number of holes -- not all of them. Clearly, the Black is not in the same league as Winged Foot West in this regard but miss in the wrong spot on a few of the holes where the pins will be located and you will drop strokes.

Mark Fine:

The Black is not just flat discs. Common Mark let's be a bit fair. You play at a course that has some of the finest surfaces I've played in America. Do the greens at the Black compare with Lehigh??? -- not in a million years! If the Black did have such greens the course would EASILY be among the 10-20 finest courses in America. I still stand behind my statement that given the Black AS IS it just misses the top 50 in America in my opinion for what it's worth. The tee-to-green demands starting from the 4th through to the conclusion (alright the 18th is just OK!) is solid.

Also, the greens at the Black are a bit better than Pine Hill. There are plenty of targets at the Black that are elevated and where the greens are contoured on a number of holes to repel indifferent iron play. They are also not easy to putt on about at least half of the holes. I say that six holes are poor -- Geoffrey says seven. Many of the greens at Pine Hill are huge catcher mits that will gladly accept your approach and give you a fairly benign test when you arrive.

Mike Cirba:

You're absolutely right -- ownership had expectations to land Pine Hill at the 8 level. Slick marketing and pre-course buzz fell on its face because there are lack luster holes on the course. There are also holes where you better stand up and deliver.

But, Mike keep in mind that if you had built greens like TF did at PV's short course you would need forecaddies on every hole at Pine Hill and the rounds would drag on forever. I can tell you that pace of play is already tough enough from the times I've been at Pine Hill because the terrain is quite severe as you well know and from those players who simply believe they can bomb away with impunity.

 

[John_McMillan]

I've seen people putt off every single green at Crystal Downs, and I don't even play it that much.

I don't think I account for more than 3 of that total  

A list of Doak greens I've putted off -

#1 High Pointe
#2 High Pointe
#3 High Pointe
#7 High Pointe
#2 Riverfront
#7 Riverfront
#12 Beechtree

Either I need to spend more time practicing putting before rounds at High Pointe, or the toughest greens are at the start of the course.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Ok let's call Pine Hill's and The Black's greens a wash.  I've only played both courses one time but I know I was very very surprised with The Black's greens.  I've played most every other Tillinghast course of note and they are by far the weakest set I've seen from Tillinghast (or whoever it was that built them).  Would you agree with that statement.  
Mark

[paul albanese]

After briefly reading the posts, I found it interesting that a large portion of the discussion group lauded "Fazio's" greens.  And then I started to think about how many projects Fazio does in one year (I know it is more than my simple mind can comprehend) -- and that made me start to think about how much a "Fazio" green is truly a Tom Fazio design.
  I guess the point of my post is to bring up how interesting it would be to better understand the people behind Fazio -- i.e Tom Henderson and others.  As I am sure Tom does not design, approve or even see all of the greens he is credited with -- it would be interesting to analyze the specific flairs and idiosyncracies of Toms creative talent.  I would assume that some day, just as historians have found that Perry Maxwell was responsible for some of Mackenzies greens,  historians will better understand the talent behind Fazio.  But, why wait until then?  
       I know from my own experience that simply working with different shapers creates different forms.  With Fazio, I am sure different forms occur with different comibinations of Senior Designers, Associates and Shapers.  
            
  

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

That's been my major point all along about Tom Fazio greens.

I don't know what to make of them, because some are truly oustanding while others are horrid, and I have to believe that it's largely due to WHO is exactly representing the name Tom Fazio on any given design.

With great success seems to come great ambiguity and inconsistency.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark F:

Agreed!

But, Mark remember the Black of today (I believe you said you last played it about four years ago) is different -- particularly from the tip tees the Open will feature. In addition, a few of the holes will be set up in a different manner than one usually faces. I've battled many of America's top courses used for the Open from the tips on a tee-to-green basis and the Black does not give any quarter if the driver is not clicking -- the greens, well, that's another story clearly, but they are not ALL pushovers by any means.

The Black does have some weak greens -- in my mind there are six, but you can make the case that Baltusrol Lower also has rather undistinguished putting surfaces as well and Tillie was more involved with that site since it came during his most active and intense period of work.

The Black can be attacked in the early holes because of the situation you have articulated so well. There are no sections or contoured areas where the ball will move towards / away with any great speed. Boy -- I only wish William Flynn had some spare time on his hands and gotten over to the Black.

The USGA and the State of New York had a golden opportunity to really upgrade a dynamo of a course -- they did a good job for the most part, but 1/3 of the course has greens that clearly the world's best will take advantage of even if the stimp is pushed to the max.

Mark, you're over / under line of -10 is definitely a fair bet. I just hope that people will not automatically assume that the Black is some weak muni with little merit because I know in my heart of hearts it's not.

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

Good analysis of the Black tee to green.  I know that it is as stern in that regard as any other course I've played and the bunkering is equally awesome. Anyone who thinks otherwise should just go out there and see for themselves!

By "dialing in" I want to be clear that I ONLY speak of putting and especially chipping and pitching from the green surrounds. The flat putting surfaces on the greens I discussed (and including #'s 3 and 5) will allow recovery and most importantly somewhat take away thought as to were you can and can not miss the approach shots to those holes.  With more interesting greens surfaces, I think the amazing bunkering would come more into play as the players would know they can't miss in certain locations and hope for par.  The 15th hole we both love so much has it in spades over the more often photographed and written about 5th hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I may have missed it, but has anyone considered that Tillinghast, who did Bethpage at the end of a career, when he had lobbied for making courses easier by getting rid of "Duffer's Headaches" and was now doing a course for a city, softened his greens there at the request of his client, just as you chastise Fazio for?  Also, I recall reading that the real power behind Bethpage was the general superintendent of construction for the City (or something like that) and that Tillie didn't have lots of construction input.

As for Fazio's variety of greens, client desires may have had something to do with it, but even within an office, they may have looked around and said, "Let's try something a little different here" and decided to put in more tee to green challenge and less contour?  I know that 1) I would like to have Fazio's problem of doing so many courses over time that it is hard not to repeat and get stereotyped, and 2) After doing Cowboys here in Dallas with lots of green contours - enough to get me roughed up more than a few of the players at a hockey game - my next course will be softer in contour just to present a different look to local golfers.

Like Paul, I feel as if I can tell the difference in styles of various Fazio designers, as some do more "gingerbread" bunkering, and others are very traditional.  It wouldn't be surprizing if the variation in greens was a result of different owners needs and different design associates.

[John Foley]

Some of the best greens I've seen are Dye's work at Kiawah. Some bold, some subtle. The tabletops at #2 & #3 are awesome. C&C's at Sand Hills are second to none, but I think you need to remove them & the site from the discussion. Hurdzan (or Craig Schriener) built some great greens here Rochester, NY at Cobblestone Creek (private) and Greystone (public). I don't know if anyone participating have played either place, but there better than most I've played or seen.
Devries at Kingsley did amazing work, love to see more of his. I also think Smyers is a great addition to the list, some at Southern Dunes (#9 & #15) and Royce Brook (west #17) are great.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Now why couldn't I say it that clearly?  It would have saved me a lot of typing!  
Mark

[GeoffreyC]

Jeff

That's a good theory, however, Tillinghast wrote a good deal about the Black and his comparison was with Pine Valley.  His chapter in the 2nd book of the trilogy on Bethpage made it clear that this was a real "championship" test for the public golfer. There were other courses at Bethpage for the "duff". It fits the bill from tee to green but the 1/2 of the greens are lifeless.

Why do you always come back to Fazio?  Here we are CRITICIZING a great golden age course for its flaw.  From his own mouth (and I heard this with my own ears) Fazio states that his clients want him to "build a top 20 golf course".  He stated that he plans to build 150 top 20 courses over the next several years   Now that doesn't sound like instructions from the client to dull down the greens does it?

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

Thanks for chiming in.

I can recall reading a story by Ron Whitten a few years back that Tillinghast has a falling out with the Bethpage administrators during construction, and was ultimately disappointed.  Yes, he did the design, routing, concept, etc., but I got the clear sense he had very little to do with the finer details as they transpired on the ground.

There is no doubt that he wanted it to be a "BEAST", and the idea that he was asked to tame the greens is pure speculation, inconsistent with what is known.

Once again, in the case of Pine Hill, what is the reason that people feel compelled to make excuses for the greens?  So far we've heard;

1) The owner may have made him do it.
2) They speed play.
3) Perhaps a lesser-talented associate actually did them.
4) Perhas they really weren't trying to build a great golf course, despite the hyperbolic marketing.
5) The rest of the course is so challenging that maybe it didn't need interesting greens.
6) Maybe, just for kicks and grins, at a site next door to the greatest golf course in the world which they themselves drew major attention and comparison to, they decided to do something different so they wouldn't be stereotyped. (I love this one Jeff....it would be terrible to get the reputation for building interesting greens! )

You know, this whole idea of creating stereotypical greens is the exact problem that I have with much of modern architecture.  

What's wrong with using the natural, unique contours of an amazing site like Pine Hill to create 18 totally unique, different, creative greens?  Why do they have to come out of a box, or some computer-generated scheme?  Why couldn't natural sidehills, bumps, slopes, etc., just form the basis for the greens?  That would ensure that originality and site congruity are established.  That would make the course unique to the site and more memorable.  

I mean...why the defensive posture, fellas??  These guys are charging $150 a pop, so I'm not sure why I feel that I'm criticising the papacy here.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Geoffrey,

I reread the trilogy about Bethpage, and Tillie did say it should be a beast, but also mentioned the PV had no consideration for the hack.  I assume he wanted a bit more design balance from his comments.  And, while I am partly playing devil's advocate, I wonder why every single word Tillie wrote is considered gospel, when today's architects word is considered "doo- doo"?

Since it was the depression, statements like "no course in the country has generated so much discussion" had to have a marketing component, especially since their were no "best new" lists.  My contention here has always been that architects have been shaped by the same forces and foibles over time.  We all promote, we all say our new course is the best ever, yada, yada, yada.  The point is, he could have said it was a beast, and still flattened the greens as a matter of practicality.  Marketing is marketing, and working to the clients needs is working to the clients needs.

Having said that, I don't really know what he thought when he designed the greens there.  None of us know whether they were changed by an equally likely scenario - uncaring or unknowing city employees with poor topdressing practices, or an unknow rebuild or resurfacing somewhere along the lines, when the city golf courses were simply trying to keep their head above water, and economics won out over historical accuracy.

Just a few thoughts

[GeoffreyC]

Jeff

Your last post is fine.  

As I said, we are CRITICISIZING the greens at Bethpage which is hardly taking his words as gospel.

[Mark_Fine]

We may never know about The Black but we should be able to find out more about Pine Hill.  Someone here must know Fazio and/or someone on his staff or one of the owners of Pine Hill and pose the question to them.  Any volunteers?  

[Tom Doak]

Does anyone know if the green surfaces at Bethpage Black are really Tillinghast's?  I've consulted on more than one course where greens were rebuilt by the committee or superintendent years ago, and on a New York State public facility, it seems more likely than elsewhere.

Does anyone remember Bethpage Black from before 1960?