[Bruce Wellmon]

I was at one time under the impression that sub air would let bent play as well in the summer as the rest of the year.Doesn't seem to be the case.

Thanks to all for the information. I have a much better understanding now.
I naively have thought Sub Air would basically "fix" everything. As Mike said above.  

[Lou_Duran]

While I'm just a lowly superintendent who has maintained bermuda and bent in the south, I will have to disagree with My Crosby and Mr. Duran about the cost of maintaining bent vs. bermuda.

The short story is, if you treat it like bent, maintain it like bent, and specify everything like it was bent, it'll cost as much as bent. However, if you understand the differences and know how to use them to your advantage, it can cost much less to maintain bermuda then bent. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Don,

I don't doubt that YOU can do that given your knowledge, hands-on work ethic, attention to detail, and confidence.  Though the cost advantage claimed by many bermuda grass experts is often used as the justification at high-volume, low-expense clubs for converting, you are the only supt. who, in confidence, has told me that you can achieve top performance while realizing the lower costs.

What I have seen is a very wide range of maintenance levels on Champion, Tifeagle, and MiniVerde greens resulting in an equally wide range of grain, smoothness, speed, and quality of the roll.  I have very seldom played ultra dwarfs which perform near the same level as bent, though I think it can be done.  My suspicion is that courses budget for the lower level of maintenance, and in the absence of having a supt. who has your ability and/or commitment, they get corresponding results.  (Or maybe I've just become a bad putter and am rationalizing my failings.)   

[Bill_McBride]

From what I've heard from several superintendents, Champion mini verde is pretty easy and not too expensive to maintain for the first two or three years, after that extensive verticutting and other dethatching measures are required.  That will increase costs significantly.

[Mike_Young]

Lots of interesting positioning as to which is better and why.  My experience has been that when one wants bent then the reasons not to have ultra dwarf outweigh the reason to have it and vice versa.....But from what I have seen at my club and a few others is is all about weiner measuring...ego or whatever the members/board wish to call it.  They usually refer to their supt and if he has never managed the ultradwarf but has had the bent then he will push or silently recommend the USGA green/bent model....if a supt at a nationally prominent club has to go to ultra dwarf they will justify it to having major tourneys in the summer ( and that is correct) 

BUT I have to agree with Don on the maintenance...as golf continues to evolve with play/maintenance cost etc boards and clubs will see that cost can be reduced on ultra dwarf where bent might not give one a choice....and as clubs of the 80's come closer to having to replace their USGA greens they will opt for the "no-till" and ultradwarf as a necessary cost saving measure....
At the risk of being slammed by the supts....the industry scoop from some of the sales people is that bent supts feel their value will drop with bermuda greens....   I don't see that at all....
I think ultradwarf is the biggest improvement to creating quality economical golf in the south in years....if a club wants it they can make it work well....

[Greg Chambers]

From what I've heard from several superintendents, Champion mini verde is pretty easy and not too expensive to maintain for the first two or three years, after that extensive verticutting and other dethatching measures are required.  That will increase costs significantly.

No different than bent.

A great friend and mentor of mine once told me, after I asked, that the difference between bermuda and bent is that the bermuda wants to live, while the bent wants to die.  You tell me which grass you think would be more expensive to maintain...

[Chris Cupit]

Greg,

I am not sure that is quite fair   Remember, at least in Atlanta, bermuda spends a significant amount of time dormant, whereas the bent is around 365 days a year   No doubt the bent stresses under hot, humid temps and you can lose grass.  But with bermuda you can also lose grass  (winter kill/spring dead spot is inevitable every year somewhere in the bermuda fairways and roughs) and it will certainly go dormant every year for months.

[Chris Cupit]

My 2 cents:
For Atlanta there is no "silver bullet" or perfect grass.  The ultra dwarfs today are light years ahead of the old bermudas and the turn away from over seeding to painting during dormancy is a huge leap forward.  Right now in Atlanta, I am guessing 90% of all private courses are bent.  A few high profile clubs (East Lake, AAC and Cherokee) have converted but most people are still sitting on the sidelines to see how things work out.  For East Lake and AAC, there was absolutely no choice--if you want firm, fast greens in Atlanta in August-early September there is only one choice.  The super at Cherokee (Tony Mancusso) is a disciple of the super from Memphis who has had terrific success with the ultra dwarfs and I know Tony will be very successful with bermuda at Cherokee.  All those guys know grass--bent and bermuda

I am a little surprised that at AAC and Cherokee, both of which have 36 holes, they seem to be heading to going with all bermuda.  I understand that choice from the super's perspective but if I were a Member I would one one course bent and one bermuda so that I always had the best of both worlds.  But I am not a Member at a 36 hole facility.

I think there can be some savings although I do not think for those very high end courses wanting "bent like" performance there is a huge amount to be saved.  And frankly, does anyone think that AAC, East Lake or Cherokee are really saving money or that that was a primary concern?!  I think many daily fees and modest clubs that struggled with bent have found a godsend with the ultra-dwarfs (but only because they are not maintaining the bermuda at a very high level.  They still can have a good product but it is not "bent like--more on that later).  The bermudas can be very fast, and very firm (many higher handicap players complain about the greens being too fast and firm actually) and what I like best is that for Atlanta you would have all areas of the course (tees, fairways and greens) peaking at the same time.  With bent, just as the greens are getting good in the fall, the bermuda fairways are slowing down, in the winter the greens are perfect and the fairways dormant and through late spring as the bent has peaked and you are going in to "protect mode" for the summer, the bermuda fairways are just starting to really thrive.

Also, with bermuda you get rid of fans, electric bills for fans and the cost to begin with of fans.  

So, I love those aspects of bermuda.  I do not think the greens roll as well but I have seen statistics that prove PGA players make just as many putts on bermuda as bent so I recognize that is a personal taste issue and I have no facts to support my view .  

At my course our play is heaviest fall through spring and has traditionally tapered off in July and August so we chose to stay with bent in 2006.  Also, the bermuda was still pretty untested and there is no doubt that 2007 and 2010 were anomilies regarding temperature and heat.  Atlanta is 1,000 feet above sea level and the historic average high temp in July is 88 with night time averages of 68.  If we just had a normal five years I don't think there would be this big of a push toward ultra dwarfs right now.  We had a freakish year last year and I tell people if I knew every year was going to be like 2010, I start spraying round up tomorrow on my bent!  If Al is right and temps will stay 2-3 degrees higher then I may change my tune.  But, bermuda has its own issues.

I still think the ultradwarfs are a little untested and we have forty years of experience with bent in this region.  We have not had a severe winter recently and the threat of catastrophic winter kill of bermuda is just as frightening to me as the thought of horrible bent turf loss due to summer heat.  It was tough but the bent did survive last year and for us, our fall, winter and spring have had near perfect putting surfaces.  

I have tremendous respect for Pat O'Brien and Chris Hartwigger with the USGA--the turf advisory section is a tremendous asset and their research is terrific.  In fact I invited Pat to come and give a presentation at my club last August.  No doubt Pat is an evangelist for bermuda today.  In fairness, in 1995 Pat was a total Crenshaw bentgrass man (prior to the development of the latest ultra dwarfs) and was convinced that was the way to go.  Crenshaw was very popular and many have had great success with it but like all plants, it has its issues.  The grasses du jour are the ultra dwarfs.

After a few beers with Pat and after some prodding by my super, Pat admited that there are two issues they are now seeing with both mini verde and Champion--segregation which is already affecting the look and texture in some of these early ultra dwarfs.  I am no plant person but what I deduced was that the segregation was occuring a little more rapidly than may have been expected and is obviously resulting in grass of slightly different shades and textures.  If I understood, the color issue is entirely cosmetic and the texture issue is really a non issue as mowing heights are so low (as low as .085!!) that with aggressive grooming, topdressing and low mowing heights, this isn't noticible.  The second issue is this--the ultra dwarfs were hailed for their disease resistance and how this was going to save thousands of dollers each year in fungicide costs.  Well, according to Pat, the ultra dwarfs are needing some fungicides after all  Nothing is bullet proof and there are some disease pressures that are needing to be addressed.  I am sure the fungicide cost is still far less but I am betting it will increase.

Another interesting item is the overall cost factor.  At a recent seminar Pat was present (and giving his bermuda sermon ) and in the audience was a super who I think is the absolute best bermuda green person ever--Chris Purvis from Berkeley Hills Country Club in Lawrenceville.  He is an absolute "go to" guy and I know Ken Mangum and his committee has made more than one trip from AAC to see what Chris does to his Champion greens.  Chris has an extremely modest budget and a shoe string staff and has the best ultra dwarf greens you will ever play.

Anyway, he and Pat did engage in a slightly contentious debate about the cost saving nature and how "easy" it was to have great bermuda greens comparable to the roll of bent.  Chris did not see all the savings that Pat was mentioning as benefits and Chris made it clear in his experience that to achieve ball roll that he thinks is acceptable and comparable to bent, one must be very aggressive.  He advocates lots of grooming, very low mowing heights (walk mowers), frequent light topdressings and in the winter, covers anytime the weather threatens to fall below 28 degrees.  The covers are interesting for this reason.  Say it is a decent late December day in Atlanta and it is warm enough (40-55 degrees) between 11:30 and 4:30 to play with temps falling to the twenties overnight.  Chris points out that the membership must understand that in order to trap enough heat under the "blankets" and unless you can keep a large winter staff, the tarp coverage must begin fairly early--maybe by 3:30 in order to get all the greens covered ASAP.  Tarping the greens is very labor intensive, is an absolute must and can disrupt play a little.  Even with covering the greens, mother nature can still mess with you and winter kill is as serious a threat to bermuda as turf die back in bent in the summer.  You never want to lose grass and this may sound like asking to choose between being shot or stabbed but would you rather have catastrophic grass loss in Atlanta in August when it's 100 or in April/May just as the season is getting started because of winter kill?

I do not know this answer and would love to hear others' experiences with winter kill--would lower cutting heights of the ultra dwarfs leave them more open to winter kill than fairway and rough height bermudas?  If you do everything right which is a greater threat--bermuda winter kill, or catastrophic bent grass die off due to heat?  Are both threats exaggerated?

According to Chris Purvis, if you go with the ultra dwarf and don't spend the time and money to "get it right" you will have crappy bermuda grass that is inferior to bent.  For many daily fee courses and at facilities where mowing heights are at .125 or higher and having so-so bermuda is acceptable, I think you can have significant savings.  But the more you baby it in order to get to a Berkley Hills, AAC, Cherokee, East Lake level, Chris would say you are dreaming if you think you will save the day with this "cheaper grass".

Let me be clear that I think an ultra dwarf today at .125 would blow the doors off the old bermudas and that height of cut should be more than acceptable for 98% of all players.  It is sick the arms race we have gotten into in order to constantly push the edge of putting surfaces--pure lunacy and unsustainable.  But, for the savings many operators seek, it will come at a price of lesser quality and the key will be if golfers will accept it.  Of course, bermuda at .125 that is healthy is way better than dead bent/dirt!

One last bermuda grass jab  Pat still hasn't been able to convince his own course super to change to the bermuda yet---and his course is in Macon, GA--and hour and a half further south of Atlanta!  Wade keeps Idle Hour and its tiny bent grass greens in terrific shape all year round and I'm still not ready to take the plunge.  

Of course, a few more 97 degree June 2nd days and I reserve the right to do a 180.

[Randy Thompson]

Chris...good job and good thoght on a very controversial subject-

[Ron Farris]

Chris, when I generally see a comment of your length I typicall scroll right past it.  I read every word, some twice.  Thanks for the insight.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

That was an excellent summation and I especially agree with your point that the ideal for a 36-hole facility would be one of each.

You only left out one factor in your analysis, which not surprisingly, all of the superintendents before you also failed to mention -- chemical use.  I have never maintained either bent or bermuda greens in the south, but I would guess that bentgrass requires far more chemical use than bermuda to deal with the threat of pythium and other hot-weather diseases.  The chemical budget might not be a big factor for some clubs, but I bet it is to the neighbors ... and those costs are going to continue to rise.

If super-fast greens weren't the issue, and you just wanted to maintain your greens between 9 and 10 on an everyday basis, is the equation still the same?  Or is it the quest for unsustainable speeds [as usual] really the problem?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Chris,
That's a good post with lots of good points.
One thing I will add, it is my experience, as well as that of some guys I know very well who have planted hundreds of courses with an ultradwarf variety, that a lot of the "extra" work that goes with maintaining an ultradwarf to high quality bent like conditions occurs when the grass is planted on a USGA mix.

Those older greens that Mike Young talks about converting to bermuda with the no till method are ideal for ultradwarf bermuda and there are 100s of cases where they far out performed greens where clubs listened to the "experts" and rebuild to USGA specs prior to converting. (a USGA green rarely meets spec after aging for 20-30 years)

Maintaining any grass to the top 1 or 2% level is going to be a lot of work. But it is easier when the program is completely and 100% tailored to your specific grass. You say the ultradwarfs are untested, I say too many supers are unwilling to listen to the guys that developed the grass and see 1000s of greens every year and know what is working and what is not.

And just for the record, I love bent grass greens. And if I was in a situation where I had good water, the right greens mix, plenty of labor for hand watering, money in the budget for fungicides, and a membership that primarily played in the fall, winter, and spring, and didn't mind a raised height of cut in July and August, then I'd stay with bent as well.

EDIT...
Tom,
I think we posted at the same time...I also like the idea of a 36 property having one course with each grass, wonder why that's not done more often.
As far as chemical use, I'd rate chemical use on bermuda to be about 20% of what is required with bent, but very dependent on local conditions. Bermuda definitely has pathogens to deal with, but many only cause cosmetic damage, not all, but many. Big difference I see is given both grasses are well cared for there is almost zero chance of catastrophic loss with bermuda due to disease. In the dogs days that is a possibility with bent and your not going to skip a spray cycle because you always know what is possible.

[Chris Cupit]

Don,

Thanks and I completely agree with you and Mike Young about the no till method and about the super success people are having and can have with the ultra dwarfs.  For a course with older non USGA greens going to bermuda can be a great option as the higher sand content or profile in USGA greens does seem to hinder rather than help the bermuda.

I will admit that part of my decision in 2006 when re-doing my course was based on the "snob" appeal of bent.  At that time, my course had suffered some years of neglect and as a business decision I felt it more important to have an "image" of a fresh start with the "best of the best".  Of course we had the record drought and heat in 2007 and then East Lake (2008), AAC (2009) and Cherokee (2010) all make the switches!

One other item that is cosmetic about the bermuda though is the "spotting" left behind after the hole locations are changed.  I think this is a characteristic of the ultra dwarfs and with holes rotated every day you see numerous round cup spots all over the green which I think looks terrible.  100% cosmetic but a minor annoyance.

Tom Doak,

In my long ramble I did mention that chemical expense as it relates to fungicides is becoming a factor for bermuda now as well.  It was a miinor point and may have gotten lost in my long post   It is amazing what is done to spray bent in the south.  I spend about 20k a year, use a spray hawk which keeps vehicles off the greens and because of that have to have two guys per green per application pretty much hand applying the chemicals.  Expensive and there is always the risk of error.

Some thought ultra dwarfs to be pest and disease free when first introduced and yet they are now seeing some disease pressures and bermuda guys are applying more chemicals than they may have originally bargained for.  But as Don points out, that cost has a long way to go to catch up to the bent chemical cost

Again, this is just my opinion on stuff and it amazes me how talented both the researchers and superintendents are who develop and manage these grasses.  It does seem ironic that as soon as a new and better grass comes out, golfers demand such incredible surfaces that supers are forced to push the very limits of the grasses to unreal levels.

If we could all be happy with slightly higher mowing heights and less aggressive practices and slightly slower greens (8.5-10) I think we could really help all turf managers keep grass from living on the edge so much.  And yet, I know I am as guilty as anything wanting faster and faster.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris,

Thanks for your response.

I'm surprised the fungicide bill is "only" 20k per year, I would have guessed twice that.  That doesn't even cost as much as one extra crew member for a year.

[Lou_Duran]

My 2 cents:

I do not think the greens roll as well but I have seen statistics that prove PGA players make just as many putts on bermuda as bent so I recognize that is a personal taste issue and I have no facts to support my view .  

Anyway, he and Pat did engage in a slightly contentious debate about the cost saving nature and how "easy" it was to have great bermuda greens comparable to the roll of bent.  Chris did not see all the savings that Pat was mentioning as benefits and Chris made it clear in his experience that to achieve ball roll that he thinks is acceptable and comparable to bent, one must be very aggressive.  He advocates lots of grooming, very low mowing heights (walk mowers), frequent light topdressings and in the winter, covers anytime the weather threatens to fall below 28 degrees.  The covers are interesting for this reason.  Say it is a decent late December day in Atlanta and it is warm enough (40-55 degrees) between 11:30 and 4:30 to play with temps falling to the twenties overnight.  Chris points out that the membership must understand that in order to trap enough heat under the "blankets" and unless you can keep a large winter staff, the tarp coverage must begin fairly early--maybe by 3:30 in order to get all the greens covered ASAP.  Tarping the greens is very labor intensive, is an absolute must and can disrupt play a little.  Even with covering the greens, mother nature can still mess with you and winter kill is as serious a threat to bermuda as turf die back in bent in the summer.  You never want to lose grass and this may sound like asking to choose between being shot or stabbed but would you rather have catastrophic grass loss in Atlanta in August when it's 100 or in April/May just as the season is getting started because of winter kill?

I do not know this answer and would love to hear others' experiences with winter kill--would lower cutting heights of the ultra dwarfs leave them more open to winter kill than fairway and rough height bermudas?  If you do everything right which is a greater threat--bermuda winter kill, or catastrophic bent grass die off due to heat?  Are both threats exaggerated?

Wow!  Talk about value.  Chris's and Don's posts certainly are worth multiples of the price of admission.  Great thinking and writing gentlemen.

RE: the PGA pros putting equally well on both grasses, might it be that the bermuda on the courses played by these guys for the one week are prepared without regard to cost, thus not representative of the bermudas most of us encounter?  If you take the grain out of bermuda and roll them repeatedly, they can perform similar to bent.

RE: the effect of cold weather and tarping, as I alluded to earlier, we had a hard winter in north Texas and some greens have suffered.  With heavy winds and large greens, tarping is not an easy process, nor is it fool proof.  At several courses, apparently wind got underneath the tarps and large areas of the greens were "killed".  At two courses I've played recently, after two plus months of trying to bring them back, they've given up and resodded the dead areas.  The rest of the greens are in poor to minimally acceptable condition.  I played with a guy who is hosting an outing involving NC golfers (Charlotte) and he canceled the round at one of these courses for that reason.

On the subject of segregation- a new topic for me, Brauer's wonderful Bridges at Preston Crossing has a great set of greens grassed with MiniVerde.  Last year they were uniform in color, the blades seemed to be finer than most bermudas, and the putts didn't seem to be affected very much by grain as they slowed near the hole.  This year, perhaps because of the winter, the color has not returned and there is much greater variation.

Some 20 miles south and west is a very good Gary Stephenson course, Frisco Lakes, opened around the same time (2008), and also grassed with MiniVerde.  The greens there have large spots of different colored grass- "segregation"?- lot of grain, and the leaves appear to be thicker.

I can only guess that the maintenance practices at Frisco are different than at Bridges, though perhaps the green construction and subsurfaces are different as well.  Of the two, Frisco is in the middle of a thriving, new housing development (Del Webb retirement community) and gets considerably more play.  I've met the superintendent and his assistant, and they appeared to be well credentialed.  I am puzzled as to why the greens built around the same time with the same grass can perform so differently.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Lou,
That is not segregation, possibly contamination either brought in with the original planting or during grow in. I've yet to see either Mini verde or Champion segregate and I just asked the breeders of Champion is they had segregation issues and they said they did not, and I've never found them to be anything less then completely honest.

Now, there have been contamination issues with certain growers and farms and if your seeing different grasses with different leaves and textures then most likely that is the case. In addition, in south Texas at least, we are in a serious drought and droughts will expose weaknesses. Off color spots could be a number of things including isolated hot spots or some sort of disease. Bermuda is prone to a leaf spot type disease that does not kill the turf but will cause a splotchy look sometimes.

As far as you comments about different courses with a similar grass playing differently, that is not exactly news is it? I have played courses with the same type of bent, bermuda, poa...and I've found that often no two courses are exactly the same, and in fact some are very different.  I've said it a lot here but it’s worth saying again, many in golf worry way to much about grass instead of how its cared for. You can plant the highest rated grass of any type in any application and it’s only going to perform as well as it’s cared for, and its not all about money. To have two courses 20 miles apart playing differently has nothing really to do with the grass type, does it?

[Greg Holland]

In North Carolina, a few have gone to an ultra dwarf bermuda, but it gets cold enough here that you can have issues with it.  I understand that the bermuda greens have to be covered nightly with a tarp in my area during the winter -- which probably creates as much cost as hand watering bent in summer, if not more.

[Mike_Young]

With all this golf back to nature movement etc....and the natural movement etc...
Bermuda was meant to grow in the south Bent was not.....

[Bill_McBride]

With all this golf back to nature movement etc....and the natural movement etc...
Bermuda was meant to grow in the south Bent was not.....

...and what a good thing that the Bermuda just gets better and better.

I also think it's a major improvement that so many courses don't over seed their Bermuda  any more, that predictably nasty transition ruined a lot of spring member-guests!

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

About 9 or 10 years ago, the former Superintendent at The Ocean Course built some test greens using bent on the back of our range.  From March until the beginning of July, there were no purer greens anywhere in the world.  When the summer heat hit in July and August, they DIED real quickly.  Can't take the Carolina heat...

[Mike_Young]

About 9 or 10 years ago, the former Superintendent at The Ocean Course built some test greens using bent on the back of our range.  From March until the beginning of July, there were no purer greens anywhere in the world.  When the summer heat hit in July and August, they DIED real quickly.  Can't take the Carolina heat...

Mike,
Doesn't that same supt  GF  now sell and consult for champions bermuda?

[Lou_Duran]

Mike V,

A former director of agronomy (?) at the Island Club told me he'd rather manage bent during the summer, his low season, than dealing with overseeded bermuda through two transitions each year.  I didn't think that bent would survive in the heat and humidity, but he was the expert.

I did play tiffeagle greens yesterday that were excellent, but still had some grain.  The club sands them lightly on a regular basis, and during this year's extreme winter, they had covers on the greens for 14 straight days.  There was some relatively minor damage on only one green, which, with the 95*+ sunny streak we're on in north Texas, will be totally gone in a couple of weeks.

Too bad that the same improvements in bermuda hybrids have not been been found for roof systems.  The area 35 miles north of Dallas was hit by several hail storms and just about all homes are having their roofs replaced.  Unlike at the Four Seasons TPC course whose bent greens were badly dinged right before the Nelson, the tiffeagle greens on this course showed no evidence of hail damage. 

[Chris Cupit]

Just a few other thoughts and a question.

A key factor is the issues of trees and shade on your course.  Bermudagrass is a sun lover and must have a certain amount of sunlight.  If bermuda could grow and thrive in some shady areas, I think it would be "game over" for bent.  But, many courses have shade issues that cannot be oversome.  Recently, Country Club of the South regrassed all their greens in bent and bermuda was not an option due to the encroachment of trees not on their property.  It is a neighborhood course andthey simply would never have been allowed to clear enough trees to have bermuda.

I have 16 greens that could thrive with bermuda but 2 that would stand no chance soI am stuck as well.

Don,

Can you recollect how many hours of sunligh are necessary for bermuda?  Also, I just was speaking with my asst. super who, despite being one of those Penn State kids, is pretty sharp!  He was saying that the latest "rumor" was that Champion Bermuda was showing some resistance to plant growth regulators that could effect turf density/firmness and ultimately playability at a "high level".  Have you heard that?  It seems as if mini verde is making a strong run at Champion and even Tiff Eagle is gaining some market share as its protocols are being better understood.  Just curious if you have heard the same thing and your thoughts
re: sunligh.

Also, for everyone, I think it is important to emphasize that there is no single factor that makes or breaks grasses.  Heat alone is not the issue for choosing between bent and bermuda.  Professional turf guys are evauluating dozens of different factors unique to each and every golf course and because of this, there are always trade offs.  I would hate for some to think their super is "wrong" based soley on geography or temperatures (especially over the last couple of summers).

Lastly, I think it is Champion bermuda not Champions (kind of like Green Committee not Greens Committee  /  

[Mike_Young]

Chris,
As for Champion vs. the others....if I am not mistaken..I think Champion was "found" where the others were created by universities...Champion was a mutation if not mistaken....so it could have a few more issues...not sure...

[Chris Cupit]

I think you are correct Mike.  That is the story I heard too. 

[Wade Schueneman]

First - Great thread! Thank you all for the very educational posts.

Second - I am shocked that the pros put as well on bermuda, as I have never putted on a bermuda green that matched the pure roll on the finest bent greens that I have seen.  However, I think that the bigger issue is a psychological one.  I find that bent greens are easier for me to read and (after many years of playing each at dozens of different courses in the South) I simply trust bent greens more.  The result is that I putt with confidence on good bent greens and make a lot more putts (even if they are running at 11 or 12) - which equates to more fun.

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