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JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2011, 11:44:53 PM »
Jeez, maybe I went on a four-month long luck streak, but my experience with golf in England and especially Scotland was nothing but wonderful.  Members were always friendly, clubs were always accommodating, never had a round cancelled without refund due to weather, never had to play with a low caliber person (if you don't count Australians), and only once had a slow round.

These horror stories make me wonder if I should just quit while I'm ahead and not go back again!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 04:19:32 AM »
Doug - there is a difference between a strong wind and hurricane force winds bringing down power lines. I've also just found out flights were cancelled and diverted at Prestwick the same afternoon due to "weather".
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 07:48:53 AM »
Chappas chappas chappas.  Failing to finish a round is negative points.   

Hospitality at WG (like most of Scotland) is epic starting with the starter, Henry (from memory he plays at a course up the coast Irvine and is a huge fan of Rory).  I can't load photos onto GCA but check Henry and WG out - http://puregolf2010.com/day-204-western-gailes/

@Pure_Golf

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 08:47:18 AM »
Mike - full fee paying unaccompanied visitors.

Goldy - agreed, at one stage it started raining and you had to cover your face as it really hurt. No doubt as honoured visitors you had the full experience. Hopefully I'll return one day and see just how good the course is. The starter was a lovely chap but laughed when we tried to play.
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2011, 09:12:50 AM »
Chappers - I don't really understand their rationale. A voucher would have been such a positive concession on their part and left you singing their praises. Shame.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2011, 09:18:09 AM »
Chappers - I don't really understand their rationale. A voucher would have been such a positive concession on their part and left you singing their praises. Shame.

Me neither. I mean, unless they are absolutely rammed all the time, what's the marginal cost to a club of a round of golf? Effectively it's zero. So at no cost to themselves they could have created a happy customer, likely to tell people what great service he'd received.

It's not golf being as business that's the problem, in this case at least, mind. It's golf being a badly run business.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2011, 09:27:29 AM »
Exactly, Adam. And, with Chappers and his crew living so far from WG the chances are that most (if not all) of the vouchers would never be used. VERY shortsighted on their part.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2011, 09:50:15 AM »

Badly run business – on what information are we basing that comment upon. Are we privy to the clubs day to day workings, did they experience that week a massive run for money back requests AFTER golfers noticed the conditions, really we just do not know. Certainly there seems to have been a glitch if we are to call it something but badly run business. No we need far more a balance of information to justify making that comment.

In marketing it is not helping the clubs cause but need to remember that we can all get upset fairly easily if our game is stopped before it starts or is interrupted. Let’s try see both side of this minor issue and there are many who would vouch for the Club, more so than currently complaining.

I find that many Scottish clubs will try and accommodate not just their members but also their Visitors. Nevertheless there are times we do not hear each other on this site, is that down to bad business. Yet I will say that many on this site do not respond to PM or e-mails, so does that mean that they too run bad businesses. What’s that saying about casting the first stone?

The good thing about our game is the generosity and the Spirit of our Scottish clubs that allow non-Members the opportunity to experience their course.

Melvyn

Carl Rogers

Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2011, 11:59:25 AM »
The weather is the major obstacle for me starting the process to convince the better half about the "necessity" of going to Scotland to tee it up.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2011, 12:19:58 PM »
Why is it that many an American consumer ignores the policies stated to them at the time of "purchase" only to complain later that they thought the policies were not absolute while further staining the good name of a person or facility?

If you are told, at time of purchase, there are no refunds then YOUR EXPECTATION should be... say it with me now... NO REFUNDS. I see no gray area here. That said we have little to no experience with closing the course for weather related issues!  :) though have had a few who scream bloody murder becasue they do not wish to play in a 20-25 MPH wind.

On a side note when guests are pulled away from their scheduled tee time (inside the cancellation period) for whatever reason we will generally offer a round of equal value for a one year period. The round cannot be prebooked but is on a space available basis as the guest has already blocked space once for that fee... happy to have them play but at a time mutually convenient hour.



Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2011, 12:23:03 PM »
Carl

Work out the courses you would like to play and what interests  and activities your wife likes. Given the information I will try and work out a double schedule for the both of you.

As for the weather, don’t worry mate is passes, but you must play a Links courses when wet and/or  windy .

Melvyn

« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 12:56:13 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2011, 12:29:56 PM »
Greg I disagree, there are grey areas. This day Mark played had exceptional weather conditions. There are two sides to the bargain, the customer pays his money, the golf club should supply the golf course suitable for golf. When flagpoles with cups are blown out of the ground the course is not fit for golf and aeroplanes are diverted a golf course is not suitable for golfing. I am not a lawyer but I think the golf course did not fulfill its side of the bargain and the UK court would rule in favour of a refund. Thats the scenario if we want to get picky, good manners is the golf club refunds or arranges alternative. As Adam righty pointed out... golf courses are buisness's and they have to behave as good buisness's...the problem many golf clubs are run by pickle heads.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 12:33:20 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2011, 01:07:12 PM »


There are always two sides to a coin, we need to hear their side before going to court.

Shoot first and ask questions later is one hell of a stupid approach to resolve such a minor issue.

We are debating issues provided by only ones side, does that sound fair and reasonable or are you planning a hanging at dawn tomorrow.

Melvyn

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2011, 01:08:16 PM »
Adrian

I just wonder if the weather was such that it was practically unprecedented in terms of having visitors out on the course when the winds were that strong (at the very least, there sounds like Mark has a strong health & safety argument for getting a refund, ie should the club have allowed anyone out in those conditions ? maybe Mark P can help  ;) ) that perhaps the man Mark spoke to was towing the normal line. Perhaps someone else higher up might have had a little bit more clout to make a decision based on the unusual circumstances.

Jeff and others,

Two or three years ago I got roped into helping out at a sponsors and tour operators day at Glasgow Gailes, the idea being to thank sponsors and tour operators for supporting the club and obviously looking for their continued support. One of the guests was the general manager of Western as the Ayrshire clubs tend to work in concert in looking to attract visitors. Not sure if that was his exact title but he was the guy who ran the club on a day to day basis based on the wishes and policies as handed down by the Committee.

He was a charming bloke and we had quite few drinks in the bar afterwards where he told me a few things about the club. Apparently Western pull in about £30K a year in visitor fees if memory serves me right. To put that into perspective they have c. 600 members paying c.£1,500 in annual subs. Anyone who is familiar with the club will tell you that its not a heavily played course. They could easily accommodate a lot more visitors and probably could get them if they wanted to go all out to attract them. The reasons they don't is two fold, firstly the members like it the way it is, and remember Western is a club not a commercial business so why not. Secondly, I believe that if clubs rake in visitors fees they beyonnd a certain level the taxman looks at them on a different basis. Not asure of the ins and outs of that one but I was assured by this gentlemen that this was an issue.

The gentleman in question has now moved on which is a pitty because I'm sure he would have been more accommodating than the person Mark dealt with.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2011, 01:16:01 PM »
Niall - I was thinking along those lines of the H & S issues and the way a club should deal with sudden weather changes like thunder and lightning. Strong dangerous winds must be hazardous. The nature of the Beaufort scale tells us this. There can be little defence if Prestwick airport, open brackets ' fairly close' close brackets deemed it not good enough for big birds!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2011, 01:24:06 PM »

"not good enough for big birds!"

Then good enough reason to get in some practice playing the ground game.

Melvyn


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2011, 01:28:09 PM »
I have told you guys for years that the Scots laugh at us behind our backs as we play the rube and fund their courses.  I'm glad to see the curtain pulled back on such an innocent issue.  Now join me in discovering our fine Kentucky Bourbons as the Single Malt Scotch market is also a scam played on us for their own social desires.

35 students of Syracuse University died on Pan Am 103.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2011, 01:44:47 PM »
Greg I disagree, there are grey areas. This day Mark played had exceptional weather conditions. There are two sides to the bargain, the customer pays his money, the golf club should supply the golf course suitable for golf. When flagpoles with cups are blown out of the ground the course is not fit for golf and aeroplanes are diverted a golf course is not suitable for golfing. I am not a lawyer but I think the golf course did not fulfill its side of the bargain and the UK court would rule in favour of a refund. Thats the scenario if we want to get picky, good manners is the golf club refunds or arranges alternative. As Adam righty pointed out... golf courses are buisness's and they have to behave as good buisness's...the problem many golf clubs are run by pickle heads.

Adrian, Not necessarily depating Mark's specific situation but rather a follow up comment related to not thinking that the no refund policy actually meant no refunds.  perhaps I was twisting it a bit but from my experience folks these days take no responsibility for their actions (i.e. making a non refundable reservation). Does the golf industry have to take the lead of the airling industry and issue refundable reservations at a higher rate just so the policy is understood completely?

Tee time is like an airline seat... plane flies you pay. Perhaps we should again take the air industry's lead and overbook by 10-20% then priomise a later round as compensation.

I am all about doing the fair and equitable thing in an extreme circumstance but the guest is going to have to start taking some responsibility and demanding money back because "i hooked a 700 pound marlin yesterday and cannot move" is not my idea of doing so.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2011, 02:15:00 PM »
Almost completely irrelevant, but the weather comments reminded me of my only golf trip to Scotland.  I’m wondering if this is some sort of record.  I played 13 rounds in 16 days and estimated that it amounted to about 45 hours on the turf.  A squall blew in while playing Brora and the wind and rain drove everyone else off the course.  I spent about an hour in my rain gear and had a glorious time playing back in all by myself (with the frisky spring lambs) in the sunshine.  For the other 44 hours of golf, it rained for 10 minutes and I never donned the rain gear again.  It rained plenty, just not while I was playing.  The breeze was a given.

I didn’t make many advanced, guaranteed bookings except for St. Andrews and, I think, Gullane, because I didn’t want to lose deposits if the weather was foul. Traveling on my own for most of the trip, it was easy for me just to wing it.  I couldn’t have been treated better everywhere I wandered (1,600 miles on the rented car), even at short notice.  It was simply the best golf experience of my life.  The only possible exception was at Gullane, where we did get charged for a MIA golfer, which was fair enough.  The problem there was the rather curt, unfriendly reception we received, only significant because of the glaring contrast with everywhere else.  It was late May or early June with the abundant daylight.  I remember fantasizing “to hell with those guys.  Next time I’ll just wait until the starter goes home at 5 o’clock and sneak out with the locals.”  I wouldn’t, of course, but the whole experience wasn’t worth  the visitor rates we paid, IMO.  Other than this minute blip during this extraordinary tour of the Scottish links, I had a wonderful and truly blessed time.   What an amazing country!

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2011, 02:28:10 PM »
John: a silly thing to bring up in a serious discussion. Good to see you are back to your old tricks.

I wonder if some would boycott the U.S. over this:

Following discussions in London in May 2008, US and Libyan officials agreed to start negotiations to resolve all outstanding bilateral compensation claims, including those relating to UTA Flight 772, the 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing and Pan Am Flight 103.[106] On 14 August 2008, a US-Libya compensation deal was signed in Tripoli by US Assistant Secretary of State David Welch and Libya's Foreign Ministry head of America affairs, Ahmed al-Fatroui. The agreement covers 26 lawsuits filed by American citizens against Libya, and three by Libyan citizens in respect of the US bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi in April 1986 which killed at least 40 people and injured 220.[107] In October 2008 Libya paid $1.5 billion into a fund which will be used to compensate relatives of the

1.Lockerbie bombing victims with the remaining 20% of the sum agreed in 2003;
2.American victims of the 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing;
3.American victims of the 1989 UTA Flight 772 bombing; and,
4.Libyan victims of the 1986 US bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi.
As a result, President Bush signed Executive Order 13477 restoring the Libyan government's immunity from terror-related lawsuits and dismissing all of the pending compensation cases in the US, the White House said.[108] US State Department spokesman, Sean McCormack, called the move a "laudable milestone ... clearing the way for a continued and expanding US-Libyan partnership."[109]




I have told you guys for years that the Scots laugh at us behind our backs as we play the rube and fund their courses.  I'm glad to see the curtain pulled back on such an innocent issue.  Now join me in discovering our fine Kentucky Bourbons as the Single Malt Scotch market is also a scam played on us for their own social desires.

35 students of Syracuse University died on Pan Am 103.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2011, 02:40:30 PM »
Robert,

Are you a Canadian citizen?  Boycott the U.S. if you choose.  I'm sorry that I do not believe trading a terrorist for an oil deal is silly. 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2011, 02:48:24 PM »
John

Just what has Pan Am Flight 103 got to do with Golf?

Looking at you John all that I can sincerely say is “There but for the Grace of God, go I”

Melvyn

PS  Oh Dear John  – you are a bloody disgrace.  

« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 02:50:31 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2011, 02:49:49 PM »
Greg I disagree, there are grey areas. This day Mark played had exceptional weather conditions. There are two sides to the bargain, the customer pays his money, the golf club should supply the golf course suitable for golf. When flagpoles with cups are blown out of the ground the course is not fit for golf and aeroplanes are diverted a golf course is not suitable for golfing. I am not a lawyer but I think the golf course did not fulfill its side of the bargain and the UK court would rule in favour of a refund. Thats the scenario if we want to get picky, good manners is the golf club refunds or arranges alternative. As Adam righty pointed out... golf courses are buisness's and they have to behave as good buisness's...the problem many golf clubs are run by pickle heads.
Quite often there is a third party who actually received the payment, and pay the course.  A refund usually cannot be made directly to the golfer, sometimes the course can notify the middleman but normally they say "no refunds".  If a golfer paid by VISA originally they can often dispute the charge, and get a refund within 9 months.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2011, 03:00:30 PM »
I can separate ridiculous U.S. foreign policy from the friends I have there. Shouldn't you exile yourself from the U.S. based on your thoughts about Scotland? Not like the U.S. didn't look the other way on Libya, as shown above.
What a ridiculous thing to bring into this discussion.

Seriously, this Western Gailles discussion comes to the heart of issues in the UK and Ireland. Tourism is central to supporting most of the world's great links and frankly it is time they recognized that some degree of customer service is important to how they operate.


Robert,

Are you a Canadian citizen?  Boycott the U.S. if you choose.  I'm sorry that I do not believe trading a terrorist for an oil deal is silly. 
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2011, 03:06:33 PM »

PS  Oh Dear John  – you are a bloody disgrace.  


Yes I am, and so is this fine country that I call home.  We make mistakes, as did yours.  I don't think Scotland cares if I never taste another drop of Scotch or never visit your fine golf courses.  My only hope is that somehow some mother of a dead child knows that I did not forget their loss.

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