Is golf becoming just business in Scotland?

[Mark Chaplin]

We played a few rounds last week in Ayrshire where it blew a hoolie. The Postage Stamp at Royal Troon was a 123 yard 5 iron.

In the Monday we played Glasgow Gailes in a 30-40mph wind gusting to 60mph. It was so strong trolleys kept blowing over and standing up straight and hitting the ball was hard. However all 8 of us are links golfers and used to a good breeze.

We arrived at Western Gailes at 3pm. The wind speed reader in the clubhouse was showing a steady 50-60mph wind and the strongest gust was 82mph. At 4pm we tried to play but it was impossible to stand up straight and a couple of times I was nearly blown over. Using a tee became difficult as the ball was being blown off. On one hole another 4 who also tried to play had the flag & hole cup blown out. Needless to say we walked in and by now the strongest gust was 88mph, that's force 12 on the Beaufort Scale and officially hurricane force winds.

On contacting the office we were offered an alternate tee time on the Wednesday or Friday afternoon. Neither were any good as we were flying home Wednesday afternoon and most trips have all their golf arranged in advance.

I wrote to the secretary and asked for our booking to be extended so we could go back later in the year, he stated the course was open for play and as we had turned down his generous offer to reschedule that week the matter was closed.

Is this the least generous golfing experience in the home of golf?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gentlemen, while I understand the need for flexibility in dealing with the public, I am also aware
of the need to have rules of engagement in which term are clear and precise for the protection of both parties.

Me thinks Gentlemen that you doth protest a little too much – yet in this age of the Customer always being correct, you may have a little point. Then again one has to wonder how many times do clubs find themselves in these positions during the course of a week.

Would you return and play a round if the opportunity arose?

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Chappers

We had thre same treatment at Muirfield.  It was way too windy for golf.  Balls wouldn't stay on greens when putted.  Balls putted forward were blown back to our feet.  Course was open so it was up to us - play or forfeit the rather large green fee.  We did go back another year after that and were treated very well, but it was bad memory that I won't soon forget and I won't go back again.  We also had issues with St Andrews Links Trust.  That said, I have had some very fine welcomes in Scotland.  A few bad apples doesn't spoil the barrel.

Nevermind about GG, it isn't worth the bother of a game.

Ciao 

[Niall C]

Sean

As a former member I think I should stand up for Glasgow Gailes and point out that Mark was referring to Western where he got stiffed for the fee.

Mark

The only thing I can really say is that it must be difficult to make a limit where a refund is applicable. I wonder how many times these clubs have had overseas visitors come off the course early because of the conditions when the conditions might have been quite benign to the average member. Clearly that wasn't the case with your group as last week was extremely windy even for courses with Gailes in the title. As an aside, I don't know if I've ever heard of a links course being officially closed because of the strength of the wind. I dare say there are days where no one has been silly enough to go out but never have I heard of a course being shut because of the wind.

Having said that, it sounds like they could have been a good bit more accommodating.

Niall

 

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

It's clear that you had a bad experience at Muirfield.  That, however, wasn't enough to put you off and you went back and were treated well, so you know, first hand, that they have sorted their act out and now treat visitors very well.  However, you frequently protest that you won't go back, based on your first experience and despite your second experience.  Doesn't make much sense to me and doesn't seem fair, either.

Chappers,

I agree that that treatment is really poor.  Surprising for a club that probably budgets for plenty of visitor play and very disappointing.

[Bill Gayne]

Five years ago I needed to cancel at Prestwick with less than 24 hours notice and as I recall they had already taken a credit card deposit. The staff at Prestwick was very understanding with the cancellation and no charges.

[Tim Martin]

We played a few rounds last week in Ayrshire where it blew a hoolie. The Postage Stamp at Royal Troon was a 123 yard 5 iron.

In the Monday we played Glasgow Gailes in a 30-40mph wind gusting to 60mph. It was so strong trolleys kept blowing over and standing up straight and hitting the ball was hard. However all 8 of us are links golfers and used to a good breeze.

We arrived at Western Gailes at 3pm. The wind speed reader in the clubhouse was showing a steady 50-60mph wind and the strongest gust was 82mph. At 4pm we tried to play but it was impossible to stand up straight and a couple of times I was nearly blown over. Using a tee became difficult as the ball was being blown off. On one hole another 4 who also tried to play had the flag & hole cup blown out. Needless to say we walked in and by now the strongest gust was 88mph, that's force 12 on the Beaufort Scale and officially hurricane force winds.

On contacting the office we were offered an alternate tee time on the Wednesday or Friday afternoon. Neither were any good as we were flying home Wednesday afternoon and most trips have all their golf arranged in advance.

I wrote to the secretary and asked for our booking to be extended so we could go back later in the year, he stated the course was open for play and as we had turned down his generous offer to reschedule that week the matter was closed.

Is this the least generous golfing experience in the home of golf?

Mark-Seems like the round at Western Gailes was ill fated from the start. I am wondering why you bothered knowing full well what you were getting into. I don`t see how the club should take the heat when you had discretion not to play. It`s sort of like buying a ski lift ticket when it is 10 below zero and then looking for a comped ticket because it was too cold.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My understanding as far back as my first trip in 1980 was that the clubs were very dependent on US Tourist income.  I didn't handle my own arrangements, and the weather was perfect, but I am not surprised about the stiff upper lip treatment for wind or weather in general there.  If they gave refunds for rain or wind, they might cut their income by 50% or more, and in their minds, its part of the golf experience, no?

[Mark Chaplin]

Niall - GG was in very good condition and has some excellent holes, we were pleasantly surprised especially as trollies kept on blowing over. It was tough but just about playable.

Tim - greenfees booked and paid for in advance.

Jeff - I'm not talking about a bit of wind and rain, the news described it as a once in 50 years storm in May, one person died, thousands of homes were without power and bridges were closed.

The Beaufort scale for force 10 (55-63mph) steady winds - Trees are broken off or uprooted, saplings bent and deformed. Poorly attached asphalt shingles and shingles in poor condition peel off roofs.

[Tim Martin]

Niall - GG was in very good condition and has some excellent holes, we were pleasantly surprised especially as trollies kept on blowing over. It was tough but just about playable.

Tim - greenfees booked and paid for in advance.

Jeff - I'm not talking about a bit of wind and rain, the news described it as a once in 50 years storm in May, one person died, thousands of homes were without power and bridges were closed.

The Beaufort scale for force 10 (55-63mph) steady winds - Trees are broken off or uprooted, saplings bent and deformed. Poorly attached asphalt shingles and shingles in poor condition peel off roofs.

Mark-Please accept my apology. If they were going to charge you regardless then I agree you should have been treated better.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - How many holes did you play before you walked in?

[Mark Smolens]

On my only trip to Scotland we had the pleasure and privilege of playing with their then-Manager, Gibson Beattie (who thereafter invited us up to his apartment on the second floor of the clubhouse and introduced me to single malt scotch -- which had a very deletrious effect on my game the following morning at Prestwick). A wonderful host and a true gentleman.

I had heard that Gibson was no longer there, and a check of the website confirmed that to be true. Hard to imagine that you would have been treated that way if he were. . .

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian - two holes, I very nearly ended up flat on my face and walking was extremely difficult so that was that. My mates made it to four holes, I believe their profiles are more suited to a breeze, so we did try.

Mark - it's always the people that make or break any experience.

Melvyn - WG is one of the best UK courses I haven't played so yes I would return.

I would say we received some wonderful hospitality at the two premier clubs in the area.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - Our policy would be to offer another date of your choice, ie a voucher with a fairly hefty time span. If you were American or a long way away (ie not realistically going to come back) you would get your money back in full.  If you had played 9 holes, half returned, if you had gone 13 then 'tuff titty'.

I think they were very hard on you. I think you should write a letter, perhaps addressed to the captain.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

It's clear that you had a bad experience at Muirfield.  That, however, wasn't enough to put you off and you went back and were treated well, so you know, first hand, that they have sorted their act out and now treat visitors very well.  However, you frequently protest that you won't go back, based on your first experience and despite your second experience.  Doesn't make much sense to me and doesn't seem fair, either.

Mark

When a club wants £125 to step on the 1st tee all is fair as far as critical comments are concerned.  We went back because the price wasn't yet too bad and we didn't get a good look the first time found.  To be fair, other than making us in play in unplayable weather, we were treated well enough.  I just don't believe the Muirfield experience warrants spending £190+ (I can't belive I just typed that number!) after seeing it a few times.  Its their club and their right to charge what they wish, but I won't take part in that sort of pricing structure.

Niall

Thanks, I misread the post.

Ciao

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think it has been a business for the visiting golfer for many years now.

[jeffwarne]

I think it has been a business for the visiting golfer for many years now.

Yes it is a business.
Always has been.
That's not a bad thing as good hospitality is usually part of a good, sustainable business plan.

A lapse of judgement by those in charge that rough day at WG, let's not condemn all of Scotland.

Sure visitors are a source of revenue for clubs in Scotland, it's great they allow such play in their model.
Pity many clubs in the US are such snobs even as they struggle to balance their budgets.

[David Harshbarger]

Service. It's a customer expectation.  Great companies deliver on service.  The type of terms quoted here are never the first resort for great companies.  Great companies make accomodations because their customers are people, and people have things come up.  Great companies deal with the occasional scumbag, because scumbags are people, and they are the people the terms are written for.

This course WG has now made an unfavorable impression on a community of entusiasts.  Great companies don't blow that opportunity.

[Jason Walker]

I had an exactly opposite experience at Western Gailes, during British Open week in 2009 no less.  We had a six hour delay out of Philly to Glasgow ( which is a story in its own right) that completely screwed up our golf itinerary.  We intended to drive right to the coast and play WG and then Prestwick.  Needless to say the people at WG were awesome and despite a crazy time and full tee sheet were able to work with us and get us in the following day.   Wish I could remember the name of the woman who helped us, but we thought we were screwed as the terms of the prepayment were very clear.  Great service and a great round of golf....and great scotch but crappy pro shop.  .

Should also add that Royal Troon was very accommodating to us as well.

[Jason Walker]

Just did a quick search of my email and Vicky was the woman who assisted us at WG! 

[John Kavanaugh]

I have boycotted all things Scottish since they traded the Lockerbie Bomber for cheap oil.  If you choose to deal with those people you get what you deserve.

[Bob_Huntley]

It pains me to hear of anything negative about Western Gailes. I have had some of my better experiences of Scottish hospitality there.

From the Secretary down, everyone at the Club has been most gracious.

Please give them another chance.

Bob

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark - were you playing as true visitors at visitor rates? As UK "locals" you should have been given vouchers for a return visit if the club didn't want to refund your money.

This is not confined to Scotland. I've had the same experience at several US courses. Most often it has been at facilities that need the money so badly their better judgement on proper customer service is compromised.

[Doug Siebert]

Reminds me of the first time I played Lahinch, but according to the clubhouse the winds were "only" force 9 steady that day (no clue on the gusts)  Stand bags wouldn't stand no matter what direction you orientated them, and we quickly learned when topping a steep hill into the wind you better be leaning forward to account for the sudden exposure to the full breeze or you might lose your balance   It was a lot of fun and I'd play in those conditions again in a heartbeat!

Honestly it would never have occurred to me to ask for a refund or reschedule due to weather conditions when playing in Scotland or Ireland.  When its windy, when its cold, when its raining, they just keep playing.  Admittedly I've never seen conditions as bad as you did, but if the course was open and you chose not to play I don't see why it is on them to accomodate you for a return trip months later.  Even when businesses do provide some sort of rain check there is usually an expiration date a month or two out.

[Randy Thompson]

Maybe we expect too much because golf is such a gentlemans game so we forget that it is also a business. I mean I have taken complete ski packages in the past and arrived to three out of four days of blizzards conditions where you could not see three feet in front of you making it impossible to ski. Never crossed my mind of asking for a refund.