[Scott Warren]

Truth be told it's probably some crapheap like Central London Golf Centre or Rum Corp Barracks back home up in the country.

But among the "great" courses I have played, it's unquestionably The European Club. Repeptitive, one-dimensional, unnatural... not fun for much of the journey.

[Kevin Pallier]

Truth be told it's probably some crapheap like Central London Golf Centre or Rum Corp Barracks back home up in the country.

Scott

Gulp - I've played the both of them 

[Scott Warren]

Jesus Kev, I'd have bet good money that no one else on GCA had played both!

Been trying to call you this week without success. Give me a shout if you fancy a hit at BonnieD this Sunday afternoon.

[Kevin Pallier]

Scott

Maybe Andrew S as well perhaps but I doubt it 

My office phone numbers have changed - still with the SES but now on a different landline number - mobile is still the same. I'll be down the Murray this weekend with work but we'll have a game soon.

[Paul Jones]

TPC of Louisiana - Driver, 4 Iron, Repeat.  Probably should have hit a 3 wood / Rescue instead of a 4 iron on some of the holes :-) and also played the lady tees.  Even Pete Dye said you can only do so much with a flat piece of land below sea level.

B.S., you played Sugar Creek with me. Or did my company make it better?

WOW - I forgot about that course.  I guess the company bumped it up a notch :-)

[JMEvensky]

JM, if anything, I'd knock Valhalla up (towards more least fun) a few notches...have you played it?  It's not someplace I'd ever be excited to play...as the other 14 on my list are similar in my opinion.

I have played it and agree that it's not the first course that comes to mind as "fun". I'd imagine that it gets a lot less fun in wet conditions.

I was just kidding about whether you'd changed your opinion.I hope,as a professional,you get to play a lot of un-fun courses--you seem to do OK.

[Harris Nepon]

I would say Talking Stick in AZ was one of the least fun courses I've played.

I just didn't get this course. It was years before I even knew about GCA so maybe I would think differently about it now. However, I doubt I would play it again if I went back to AZ.

[William_G]

William, ever played Creekside at the GCofGA?   

Nope, just Lakeside 13 years ago.

Thanks

[DBE]

I like Mountain Lake...more than Oak Hill West.

Regarding Oak Hill East and the recent changes to the 5th, 6th and 15th greens, rather than speculate the membership's actions over the years, your source there should be Craig Harmon. I know that for the 1989 US Open, those greens were way out of character than all the others.  Seems like there were some other changes that involved the 4th hole (perhaps changing it from a par four to five?). There was no flow on the course except for 7-14.

USGA has apparently given it to the PGA (as it has Whistling Straits, Medinah, Hazeltine, Bellerive, Baltusrol, Atlanta Athletic, etc.,).

[jonathan_becker]

PGA National. 

Too much water, wind, housing, and too many difficult shots. 

It's been some time since I've been there but I'm in no hurry to get back.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I like Mountain Lake...more than Oak Hill West.

I also like Mountain Lake, but, what about Mountain Ridge ?

Regarding Oak Hill East and the recent changes to the 5th, 6th and 15th greens, rather than speculate the membership's actions over the years, your source there should be Craig Harmon. I know that for the 1989 US Open, those greens were way out of character than all the others.  Seems like there were some other changes that involved the 4th hole (perhaps changing it from a par four to five?). There was no flow on the course except for 7-14.

I spoke with Craig when I visited years ago.
His dad and my dad were very friendly.
But, I didn't speak to him about the holes/greens.
They were obviously out of sync with the rest of the course.
My host, Mr Kling, Jerry's and Chris's dad, was more than upset about the changes, which he claimed were snuck through over the winter when many members were out of town.

He indicated that a sizable portion of the membership was very upset by them.
Thus, I'm surprised that after the Open that they weren't "fixed"

USGA has apparently given it to the PGA (as it has Whistling Straits, Medinah, Hazeltine, Bellerive, Baltusrol, Atlanta Athletic, etc.,).

Since you were at the epicenter of U.S. Open setups, what's your perspective on Open setups today, 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 years ago.

And, what would be your ideal Open setup in general terms ?

[JMEvensky]

Since you were at the epicenter of U.S. Open setups, what's your perspective on Open setups today, 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 years ago.

And, what would be your ideal Open setup in general terms ?[/b][/size][/color]

[/quote]

Two great questions.

[Dan Kelly]

1. Hazeltine National (Dave Hill was so right and any and all "improvements" haven't much helped)

I don't think Hazeltine was designed to be "fun."

Nonetheless, I have never turned down the chance to play there -- and never will.

Sure, it's challenging -- from start to finish. Is that any reason to hate it?

[Michael Dugger]

Blue Heron at Heron Lakes in Portland. It seemed the only club I could not hit in the water was a wedge. By the time our little GCA group was finished we were discussing what it was to like to play golf in Florida. You know the state with the most Doak 0s by Jason's ratings.

Can I ask how many times you've played Heron Lakes Great Blue, Garland?

There is certainly plenty of trouble out there, but this course is far from garbage.

Honestly, do you really find more "fun" in punching out from the trees than you do in reloading after shanking in the water?

A horrific shot is a horrific shot, my friend, don't blame the architecture.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Honestly, do you really find more "fun" in punching out from the trees than you do in reloading after shanking in the water?
...

I have yet to discover how to submerge myself in a pond and hit a recovery shot. From the trees, I can generally get half way to the green, if not all the way. The trees are extracting a fractional penalty, similar to what sand bunkers do. With trees, I get to try to hit hooks, slices, draws, fades, grounders, high balls. None of these are possible while submerged in a pond. If you don't believe me, I recommend you try submerging yourself for a good while and give it a go.

I played Blue Heron when it was first opened and had all the "links" golf hype being put up about it. Unfortunately, it is simply a Florida swamp land course, minus the gators.

[Jim Franklin]

2. Bellerive (Terrible in its original design and now really a bore)

I can't wait to play in their member guest next week. What do you think would help the course? Maybe a driveable par 4? More variety in the par 3s? Do you think C&C or Doak could make it more fun?

[Matthew Rose]

Cherokee CC in Madison, WI.

Built over a marsh. Wetlands or water on both sides of every fairway. Every par three is 210 over water. Perfect or near-perfect par rotational routing. Shot a million first time I played it. Got revenge on it the second time after hitting 3 wood off every tee.

Used to see Steve Stricker there a lot... his in-laws run the place.

[Kalen Braley]

I can't think of a name course to add here that more than 2 people would know..

..but this thread has got to be dedicated to all those too numerous-to-count joe blow doak scale 1 muni courses out there with flat fairways, flat greens, straight holes, no fairway bunkers, and an occasional greenside bunker (also flat).

I've played some ball buster Nicklaus courses that weren't fun in the sense of losing balls or shooting 120+.  But at least there was good scenery, interesting fairway configurations, and other stuff to look at that it wasn't no fun.

[Jud_T]

When you look up Goat Track in the dictionary it says "from the latin root Ballybunionus Cashenem"

[PCCraig]

2. Bellerive (Terrible in its original design and now really a bore)

I can't wait to play in their member guest next week. What do you think would help the course? Maybe a driveable par 4? More variety in the par 3s? Do you think C&C or Doak could make it more fun?

More variety in the par 3s? #3 is anywhere from a 5-8 iron to a double tiered green, #6 is anywhere from a 7 to 3 iron to a very hard kidney shaped green, #13 is a really pretty short iron in a back corner of the property, and #16 is a long iron/hybrid/wood long par 3 to a huge green. I think there is decent variety there with the par 3's being a strong part of the design.

As for a drivable par4, #2 can be played as a drivable par 4. It's a hybrid/short iron from the back tees, and from the normal tees it could be played as a 300ish par-4 with water in front and behind the green. A Doak or Ross esque short par 4? Maybe not, but it could be done.

Dave E doesn't seem to be a fan of the R. Jones / RTJ / Nicklaus championship school of design.

[Jim Franklin]

2. Bellerive (Terrible in its original design and now really a bore)

I can't wait to play in their member guest next week. What do you think would help the course? Maybe a driveable par 4? More variety in the par 3s? Do you think C&C or Doak could make it more fun?

More variety in the par 3s? #3 is anywhere from a 5-8 iron to a double tiered green, #6 is anywhere from a 7 to 3 iron to a very hard kidney shaped green, #13 is a really pretty short iron in a back corner of the property, and #16 is a long iron/hybrid/wood long par 3 to a huge green. I think there is decent variety there with the par 3's being a strong part of the design.

As for a drivable par4, #2 can be played as a drivable par 4. It's a hybrid/short iron from the back tees, and from the normal tees it could be played as a 300ish par-4 with water in front and behind the green. A Doak or Ross esque short par 4? Maybe not, but it could be done.

Dave E doesn't seem to be a fan of the R. Jones / RTJ / Nicklaus championship school of design.

When I mentioned par 3s, that was something my friend said. I still need to play the back nine. I know plenty of people that love Bellerive and when I mention I am playing in the member guest, I get lots of "wow" looks from people. I am looking forward to it nonetheless.

[Bill_McBride]

I would say Talking Stick in AZ was one of the least fun courses I've played.

I just didn't get this course. It was years before I even knew about GCA so maybe I would think differently about it now. However, I doubt I would play it again if I went back to AZ.

Harris, I think you would like the North better now.  (Hopefully you didn't play TS South, not anywhere near as interesting.)

A "least fun course" to me is one that has no variety, no strategic challenge and no tactical options.  TS North has all three in spades.  A few examples, with alternate playing lines, decisions from the tee:

[RJ_Daley]

Until this page, I really couldn't think of a course I totally disliked other than a few country bumpkin tracks that some farmer got sick of milking and laid himself out a golf course, that none of you would know.  But then Matt Rose hit a chord with Cherokee, where Stricker apparently has the trailer set up  in the winter to hit out into the snow.  I haven't played Cherokee in 30+ years, and didn't have much of a thought for GCA in those days.  I hear that many drainage issues in that otherwise swampy marsh of a layout have been fixed to some extent.  But, it was definitely my least favorite course from back in the day, now that I think about it.

Whistling Straits was not a fun course for me either time I played it.  I was in a shotgun start outing the first time not using the appropriate tees for me, the first week it was open.  While some of the holes and meeting Pete Dye and Alice on the infamous 17th before we played away, and discussion of the whole project with a lot of animation from Pete, and is one of my best golf memories, I can't say that as a round of golf, it was much fun at all. 

Generally, just because of GCA.com, I'd have to say that whenever I do travel and play somewhere, the advance discussion has given me interest to try something, and that never really disappoints, because the discussion usually gets to the heart of the design merits and one already has a screening process to weed out the mutts. 

[Michael Dugger]

...
Honestly, do you really find more "fun" in punching out from the trees than you do in reloading after shanking in the water?
...

I have yet to discover how to submerge myself in a pond and hit a recovery shot. From the trees, I can generally get half way to the green, if not all the way. The trees are extracting a fractional penalty, similar to what sand bunkers do. With trees, I get to try to hit hooks, slices, draws, fades, grounders, high balls. None of these are possible while submerged in a pond. If you don't believe me, I recommend you try submerging yourself for a good while and give it a go.

I played Blue Heron when it was first opened and had all the "links" golf hype being put up about it. Unfortunately, it is simply a Florida swamp land course, minus the gators.

Well, to each his own.  The topic at hand here is "fun"

I "get" your position.  Bobby Jones plane/car crash blah blah blah.  I know it already.

Thing is, the fact that one has recovery options from trees, and does not from water, does not necessarily equate to "fun"

It might for you.

I can be "creative" from the fairway, thank you very much, so water hazards are not taking that away from me.

I think you hate water because you supplement the cost of golf balls by always being in the boondocks and finding lost balls.

Too bad they are all Top Flites  

  

[Tom Yost]

My most recent "least fun" course would be the Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain.  Although the greens were pretty fun, getting to them was like multiple kicks to the nuts.

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