[Tom_Doak]

A friend from Spain texted me at lunchtime with this note:

Please, tell Jeff Brauer in Spanish we say cojones (balls), not cajones (drawers).   

So we all learned something there, although whether or not it was about golf course architecture, I'm not sure.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

As with Patrick, I can't teach you anything...

But I will ask to please use restraint when creating massive collection areas like #16 at PD to avoid divot ridden slogs. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - I think it only proper that I provide the same 'answer' on this thread that I did on John's thread about teaching JN:

Interesting thread, but its premise is flawed. At the level of professional architects, it isn't about knowledge (i.e. something that can be taught), it is about taste and temperament (in-born qualities) and intentions (part of a personal heirarchy of values).  There is nothing anyone can meaningful 'teach' anyone else when it comes to taste, temperament and intentions; though I grant that many of us around here try to do exactly that more often than not.

Peter  

[archie_struthers]

 



How bout trajectory ,  on shots into and around the green.  If there isn any one thing even the best of architects could pay greater attention to it is how the hole can beg for a certain trajectory , and create a venue that accepts it more readily. It might be limiting or completely avoidng collection areas around a green , so as to mnadate trajectory thru skill and not by using slope to achieve same !

[Patrick Hodgdon]

This isn't a teaching as much as a question but having just played Lawsonia for the first time over the weekend and very much enjoying Langford's effective use of "eyebrow" berms (forgive me if there is a more technical GCA term) I would love to hear your thoughts on the feature and whether you would consider using it more on future courses?

I'm not a well-traveled GCAer, with CommonGround being the only Renaissance course I've played so far, so forgive me if you have used them on many of your other courses, however when discussing my enjoyment of them at the Mashie with 7-8 of the guys no one piped up with another great example of them being used elsewhere.

[PCCraig]

This isn't a teaching as much as a question but having just played Lawsonia for the first time over the weekend and very much enjoying Langford's effective use of "eyebrow" berms (forgive me if there is a more technical GCA term) I would love to hear your thoughts on the feature and whether you would consider using it more on future courses?

I'm not a well-traveled GCAer, with CommonGround being the only Renaissance course I've played so far, so forgive me if you have used them on many of your other courses, however when discussing my enjoyment of them at the Mashie with 7-8 of the guys no one piped up with another great example of them being used elsewhere.

Patrick:

We saw a similar feature at Lost Dunes at last year's Mashie, on the 2nd hole. The only difference is that the berm/wall/small dune is directly next to and in front of the green, versus set back or off the tee like most at Lawsonia.

[Bill Brightly]

OK, since you asked, I think your Redans should have bigger kick mounds off the green. I say this because A players and other long hitters can fly the ball to the green in most cases. They will get the enjoyment of watching their properly placed iron shots feed to the pin. But women and shorter hitters must take a line far right of the green, and their woods may land 20-40 yards short of the green, and really need the mound to help direct it on to the green on holes such as Pac Dunes or Old Mac (but I need to play this one more).

[J Sadowsky]

I didn't comment on the Nicklaus thread, but I think Doak is right and I think people who have taken up the mantle are mostly missing the point.  Outside of some trivia or localized/specialized knowledge that a head architect doesn't really need to know, there's nothing I or most anybody knows about golf architecture that we could teach Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.  (Slight walkback:  Many here might be able to teach Doak or particularly Nicklaus things about golf architectural history that are new to them, but that's a different topic and only tangentially related to their design abilities).  There may be things that we might tell Doak or Nicklaus to consider that they have already considered but rejected.  Our way may be preferred by us, it may be preferred by whatever group we deem relevant to judge architecture, and to the extent such a thing exists, it may even be "objectively" a better approach.  But Doak and Nicklaus don't need to be "taught" these things, as they already "know" them, they just disagree or feel that other priorites lead to a different result.  That doesn't mean that Doak or Nicklaus couldn't grow as an architect by working together with some of the architects here, just as we wonder whether Doak and/or Nicklaus may have grown as an architect by working together on Sebonack, and indeed continue to grow as architects by working with their own associates.  But neither of them are likely to materially improve as architects by taking a class on architecture taught by any one of us.

[Jud_T]

Tom:  I suppose I could teach you how to use concrete cross-hazards (ie, streets), streetlights, chain-link fences fronting greens, sewage canals, and "el" tracks and pedestrian tunnels to create fun and interesting golf in an urban guerilla environment, just in case the more traditional clients ever stop calling...   

How about for next year's Mashie Tom makes up guerrilla holes on the fly as we play through downtown Detroit...

[Simon Holt]

Nothing bar convince you to sit and watch a busy day of drives on the 6th hole at Renaissance and move that bunker!   Can I make a request though? 

Dear Santa Doak and Elf Placek,
I know its early but I have been a good boy this year.  Please can I have another Redan hole in East Lothian? 
Thanks in advance. 
Simon

[Matthew Petersen]

Tom,

Have you learned anything from this site in the years you've been reading and posting here?

[Bill Brightly]

I didn't comment on the Nicklaus thread, but I think Doak is right and I think people who have taken up the mantle are mostly missing the point.  Outside of some trivia or localized/specialized knowledge that a head architect doesn't really need to know, there's nothing I or most anybody knows about golf architecture that we could teach Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus.  (Slight walkback:  Many here might be able to teach Doak or particularly Nicklaus things about golf architectural history that are new to them, but that's a different topic and only tangentially related to their design abilities).  There may be things that we might tell Doak or Nicklaus to consider that they have already considered but rejected.  Our way may be preferred by us, it may be preferred by whatever group we deem relevant to judge architecture, and to the extent such a thing exists, it may even be "objectively" a better approach.  But Doak and Nicklaus don't need to be "taught" these things, as they already "know" them, they just disagree or feel that other priorites lead to a different result.  That doesn't mean that Doak or Nicklaus couldn't grow as an architect by working together with some of the architects here, just as we wonder whether Doak and/or Nicklaus may have grown as an architect by working together on Sebonack, and indeed continue to grow as architects by working with their own associates.  But neither of them are likely to materially improve as architects by taking a class on architecture taught by any one of us.

While I think TD is the most gifted architect out there, I have to disagree with the premise of your statement. We are the consumer, so he should always be interested in how we "use" his product. For example, I know there are holes at Old Macdonald and Barnbougle Dunes that Tom will look at again because of feedback from players, especially if players have figured out a way to play a hole that was never contemplated (like an alternative fairway), or avoid a line of play because it does not offer the "reward" that Tom intended. (I actually think other architects overdo the "risk" part far more than Tom, I am almost always tempted to accept his challenges, while others put so much risk into a hole that I choose the safer option.)

I don't want to get into defining "material improvement" because if Tom even admitted to learning one small thing from this thread, I'll be stunned

[PCCraig]

Years ago I had a philosophy teacher pose this statement to the class, and asked us what we thought it meant:

"The more you know, the more you don't know, and the more you don't know...the more you know."

In a big way, John K's Nicklaus thread* and this thread exposes the fact that many posters on here assume they have a knowledge of golf course architecture in the same league as a Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus. However, the most knowledgible people I've ever met have always been the first person to point how how much they don't know and have to learn.

A couple of weeks ago, Jay Flemma and others posted and started threads bashing Rees Jones and his courses/redesigns. Many of them had never played or seen the courses being discussed in person, but spoke as if they were all knowing experts when they couldn't be further from it.

I've got a long long long way to ever being in the same universe as the GCA's we discuss here on a daily basis (Tom Doak, C&C, Nicklaus, Rees Jones, RTJ II, Brauer, etc...) but that's ok as I'm aware that I'm a banker that enjoys and studies golf course architecture as a hobby only.

Despite the title, I hope that Tom D. continues to participates here, both for the selfish reason that I really enjoy learning from his many posts, but also because he is also taking something away from all of us...whatever that might be.



*In case many on here haven't figured it out yet, John K. very much thinks most of the posters on here are know-it-alls and tries to expose many on here to the point that they don't. Hence the real point of the Nicklaus thread and such "classic" threads such as "Do you think you're one of the great minds in golf."

[Bruce Katona]

Tom: With the state of the economy can you teach me how to afford to take my wife (and daughter) to Paris?  Please?

[Jerry Kluger]

I wouldn't say I could teach you anything but perhaps I could remind you of some practical facts. When I played Commonground I really enjoyed the course except for the pace of play.  When we got to the 17th hole there were 2 groups on the tee and we were number 3.  Do you think that at least with respect to a muni course you should not have a difficult par 3 as the 17th hole? 

[Dan Kelly]

Tom --

I have no idea if I could teach you anything about anything, much less about golf architecture!

I haven't (yet) played a single Tom Doak course. Hope and plan to remedy that -- and when I do, I'll look around and wonder:

How would this course play for my daughter? How will it play for me, as I continue to get older? (Knock on wood.)

My daughter's game and mine are converging. She's getting longer; I'm getting shorter. She's getting better; I'm not (though hope springs eternal).

One of these years, I'll be moving forward to the tees her college team plays from (circa 6,000-6,200 yards). And then I'll find, as she has found, that courses usually don't seem to have been designed with those tees anywhere near the front of the architect's mind. The tees are often askew, changing the holes utterly. The bunkers aren't in the "right" places, often, to challenge them. The approach shots are often unduly uncomfortable -- with greens designed to accommodate only high, spinning shots with very short irons, when even good women players might be hitting hybrids and mid-irons.

Anyway:  The only thing I can imagine "teaching" you -- and perhaps you're already the exception that proves the rule -- is this: Pay close attention to making the course just as interesting from 5,800-6,200 yards as it is from 6,800-7,200.

There are a helluva lot of us aging Baby Boomers, getting stiffer all the time.

And, with any luck, there will be a helluva lot of young women, getting stronger all the time.

Thanks.
Dan

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

I don't think anyone knows everything about their field.  But if you had some amazing technique for a barrel roll, I'd listen and give it some thought, but probably stick with the technique I've used a thousand times.  Which is my way of saying that I don't think I can teach you a damn bit about golf architecture.  I think you started this thread as a parody of the other thread, which is funny considering there hasn't been any useful info on that one either.  If I was in the field, here's what I'd try and pull off if I had my druthers.

--I'd want to work directly with the superintendent.  His input and his consultation as to what he's going to keep your way and what he's going to change the minute you're done is paramount.  A great feature that you and the guys get pumped about may be unmaintainable to him. 

--I'd like to use native material wherever possible. 

--I'd like to design for pace of play.  Nothing adds time to a round like fall off to a chipping area on every green.  That concept gets old--even though I love false green slopes on four or five holes a round.

--I'd never put a bunker in the layup area of a long par four for shorter hitters.  I just don't feel like the second shot on a par four for short players should be equatable to the second shot on a long par five for longer hitters.

--I'd put bunkers behind greens more than you do.

--I'd have more blind approaches than your courses, and less blind fairway from the tee.  At the very least, try to strike a balance of the two.

--I'd place a fairly large premium on fairway accuracy.  Not just hitting the fairway.  But hitting the right part of a wide fairway.  At places like Old Mac, you have conceded that a two putt may not be possible.  In that vein, I'd like more fairway angles from which just getting your ball on the green is nigh impossible, even though you're on short grass. 

I probably have more, even though you probably already know what they are.  As for Paris, I've never been, so I can offer nothing.  But if you're interested, there's some windy rolling hillocks with ocean views on the deserted southeast coast of Maui that look like they're built for golf. 

[Jason Topp]

All I can share is what I like and don't like.  Whether that teaches anything is up to you.

[David_Elvins]

I couldn't teach tom doak anything. He just doesn't listen

[Tom_Doak]

Hopefully I will have more time to read your replies over the next day or two.  The only thing I can tell you for sure, this evening, is that no one who responded to this thread had as much fun as I had this afternoon / evening.  And as a side note to Bruce Katona:  no, it's not at all inexpensive to visit Paris nowadays, but we have definitely found the money spent to be worth it.

[Bart Bradley]

Hopefully I will have more time to read your replies over the next day or two.  The only thing I can tell you for sure, this evening, is that no one who responded to this thread had as much fun as I had this afternoon / evening.  And as a side note to Bruce Katona:  no, it's not at all inexpensive to visit Paris nowadays, but we have definitely found the money spent to be worth it.

Tom,

Have a great time.  I went to Paris last April and got stuck because of the Ash Cloud.  I ended up spending 2 weeks.  Make sure you see the Orangerie (quick Monet fix supreme), have lunch at Entrecote, and go to the private Marmottan museum (huge Monet collection).  Make a day trip to Chartres and take the tour with Malcolm Miller.  Make a day trip to see Giverny.  Send a private message if I can be of any help.  After 2 full weeks, I have seen most of the beaten and off the beaten path options.

Best,

Bart

[Steve Kline]

That hole actually penalizes someone who draws the ball.

John - why is that a problem?

It's not a problem, just a theme on Doak courses.

Have you played Ballyneal? No way that course penalizes someone who draws the ball. Holes 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 18 all are neutral or favor a draw on the tee shot, second shot or both.

[Ben Sims]

 The only thing I can tell you for sure, this evening, is that no one who responded to this thread had as much fun as I had this afternoon / evening.  

Beg to differ. Just got done pulling my kayak behind me while snorkeling almost the entire wailea coast of Maui.  Saw about twenty green sea turtles and at least two dozen species of fish.  Even the humuhumunukunukuapua'a.  Epic.

[Kyle Harris]

  The only thing I can tell you for sure, this evening, is that no one who responded to this thread had as much fun as I had this afternoon / evening. 

Beg to differ. Just got done pulling my kayak behind me while snorkeling almost the entire wailea coast of Maui.  Saw about twenty Sean turtles and at least two dozen species of fish. Epic.

Did you see a Humana.... hum hum hum a?

Oh whatever. Just wanted an excuse to be the second to this list.

[Brian Ross]

Tom,

For the best view of Paris NOT from the top of the Eiffel Tower, check out Parc de Belleville.  You can take the M2 or M11 subway route and get off at the Belleville stop.  Also, in that immediate area are Parc des Buttes Chaumont, which offers some really nice views as well, and Cimitiere du Pere Lachaise, which is easily the most impressive cemetery I have ever seen (besides the pyramids, of course).  You can check out the graves of Jim Morrison (if you're a Doors guy), Oscar Wilde, and many others there.

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