[JNC Lyon]

DISCLAIMER: I have not played Colonial, and I have only seen it through a few years of TV broadcasts.

Colonial seems to be heralded by many good players.  Yet, from watching the course on television over the last few years, it appears to be wholly uninspiring.  It is narrow and tree-lined, with a minimum variety in strategic options and uninspiring hazard placement. The course looks like it would be tougher for an amateur player, but for the professionals it is a piece of cake.

Does Colonial Have Any Architectural Merit?  Is this type of course the reason that so many American players suffer from a lack of imagination today?

[Jeff_Brauer]

While it has taken a beating as a low scoring venue on the Tour, it does have some merit.  Perhaps not evident on TV are the couple of paired fade/draw holes.  1 bends right with a left wind, 2 right with the left wind, 3 left with the right wind, 5 right with the right wind, etc.  On the back, 16 right with left wind, 17 right with right wind, 18 left with left wind, etc.

Yeah, most of the greens are bunker left, bunker right, with subtle advantages playing left and right.  You have to remember that narrow fw can have a preferred angle, if the green angles only a few degrees with one bunker coming further across the front more than the other.  That said, I heard the announcers mention that even with the golfer who hits the trees, its really not a bump and run course.

[Jim Eder]

Jeff,

Do you think the fact that Hogan and Colonial are tied together causes folks to give the course more credit than it may deserve or do the generally glowing opinions stand regardless of the Hogan connection? Hogan and courses with architectural merit seem to go hand in hand so I could see where this might influence people. Thanks

[JNC Lyon]

Jeff,

Do you think the fact that Hogan and Colonial are tied together causes folks to give the course more credit than it may deserve or do the generally glowing opinions stand regardless of the Hogan connection? Hogan and courses with architectural merit seem to go hand in hand so I could see where this might influence people. Thanks

Jim,

I think that's correct, and I should have added that to my original post.  Again, why was Hogan used an expert on golf architecture? I have no clue.

[Jim Eder]

JNC Lyon,

I think the perception is because Hogan would work the ball, the fact that he played well on courses of architectural merit (Merion, Riviera, etc), and he would talk about the exact place in fairways he wanted to place his drives etc.  I remember reading in a few places how he would hit to such a specific spot in a fairway in order to set up the best approach so he was very cognizant of course management. John Kavanaugh made a very interesting point on a prior thread about course management and understanding architecture being the same thing. So my guess is that is probably why people tend to think about Hogan that way, rightly or wrongly.

I am sure there are many Hogan experts on this site to shed some light on this for us.

Did Hogan ever design or have significant influence on a golf course or any holes? I can't really remember reading anywhere that he had.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC Lyon,

I think the perception is because Hogan would work the ball, the fact that he played well on courses of architectural merit (Merion, Riviera, etc), and he would talk about the exact place in fairways he wanted to place his drives etc.  I remember reading in a few places how he would hit to such a specific spot in a fairway in order to set up the best approach so he was very cognizant of course management. John Kavanaugh made a very interesting point on a prior thread about course management and understanding architecture being the same thing. So my guess is that is probably why people tend to think about Hogan that way, rightly or wrongly.

I am sure there are many Hogan experts on this site to shed some light on this for us.

Did Hogan ever design or have significant influence on a golf course or any holes? I can't really remember reading anywhere that he had.

Hogan worked on one course, The Trophy Club in Dallas.  Doak gave it a 4, and his main point in the review is that the course shows that skill as a player has little correlation with GCA expertise.

[Jim Nugent]

Again, why was Hogan used an expert on golf architecture? I have no clue.

Following up on Jim's response, Hogan is known as one of the greatest shotmakers ever.  So it could be easy to believe that courses he favored, or courses he played well on, rewarded shotmaking.    

It occurs to me that the better the shotmaker, the more strategic every course could become.  The better shotmaker might be able exploit subtle differences in the course, giving him more options and choices.  Hogan's alley at Carnoustie is one example of that.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am sure the Hogan connection has something to do with Colonial's reputation, but the history at almost any older course that has hosted PGA tour events would give them similar cache.

[Jim Eder]

JNC Lyon,

Thanks on the Trophy Club, I had no idea. Great to know. I am going to search this site to see if anyone has wriitten about it etc. It would be interesting to see what he designed.

Jeff,

Thanks.

Jim Nugent,

Excellent point you make here - "It occurs to me that the better the shotmaker, the more strategic every course could become.  The better shotmaker might be able exploit subtle differences in the course, giving him more options and choices.  Hogan's alley at Carnoustie is one example of that."

You just made all the thoughts in my head on this topic (strategy) make sense in a clear and concise way. Thank you!!

[John Kavanaugh]

You do not measure expertise by the ability to enlighten the ignorant.  That it what you under pay teachers to do.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

It is true that great players (in nearly any sport) tend to make lousy coaches, because they never really had to think about the game, they did it with pure skill.  Not sure it applies as much in golf as hockey (Gretsky) Basketball (Bird, Jordan) and baseball, where superstars are rarely great coaches.  Hogan sure had to study the game, and then restudy it after the accident. 

Plus, its doubtful he had much patience for golf teaching, or even gca.  He walked off the Trophy Club project and refused to let it use his name over some kind of dispute.  Given how bland/sparsely bunkered the course really is, its hard to imagine what his beef was, but I think its written down somewhere.

[Jim Hoak]

As a Texan, I am proud of my state.  And I think we are one of the 3 or 4 best golf states in the country--measured by the golfers we produce.  But I recognize that the quality of our golfers is not matched by the quality of our courses--due to topography, soil, or whatever.  In my opinion, Colonial is the best of a pretty mediocre crowd of courses.  I have not played all the courses in the state, but I've played many.  Colonial is fun, it is somewhat appealing to the eye, and it has a reputation.  But it is sad if it is the best we have to offer.

[Terry Lavin]

It looks like an above average members' course that needs to cut down dozens of trees, but it doesn't do much for me as a tour stop, that's for sure.

[Jim Eder]

Do the trees come into play that much on the course? It was tough to see from TV but it seems only poor shots were caught up in the trees.

[Kirk Gill]

Plus, its doubtful he had much patience for golf teaching, or even gca.  down somewhere.

Wrote one heck of a golf instruction book, though. I really love "Five Lessons."

[Chris_Clouser]

Jeff Brauer,

You might want to change you coaching example to not include Bird.  While he coached the Pacers he won Coach of the Year and took the Pacers to the NBA Finals.  You can debate how much of that was his talent or that of his players, but his record is what it is.  His skills as a GM are still up for debate.  I would argue Magic Johnson in his coaching stint was a complete failure instead.  Isiah Thomas would be another.  Also, did Gretzky or Jordan ever coach?   I think that old adage is not as accurate as anyone makes it out to be.  First off, a much lower percentage of great players go into coaching than the average player through the history of sports.  Also, when they do fail it is often under a larger microscope.  Few look at the examples of great players that succeed as coaches.  Larry Brown was a great ABA guard and he is one of the best coaches in basketball history.  Bill Russell was successful as a player/coach.  Lenny Wilkins was another great player who became a great coach.  Those are all basketball examples, I don't know how the other major sports would work out if you compared them because I have not studied them as well but I would wager you could probably find a similar standard.  I think the great players don't often feel the draw to coach.  They don't feel the same competitive fire from the bench and it just doesn't appeal to them.  So instead they go into golf and become victims of the Haney Project or wager large sums of money at casinos... 

[Lou_Duran]

I have probably played Colonial more than any of the top ranked courses and consider it to be among Texas's best.  I don't share Jim Hoak's take on Texas golf- there are many worthy courses here that don't get their due recognition for a variety of reasons, weather and environmental factors among them,

Colonial is a difficult course as it was intended to be played- in the wind, with firm fairways and greens, and snarly bermuda rough.  Sunday was more of an indication on how it can play, though I've been there many times in the summer and fall when hitting in the rough was at least a half-stroke penalty.

Another thing that might have contributed to the low scores is the conversion from commom bermuda to 419 (I think).  Specially for the tournament before the common had a chance to recover from the winter and the heavy cart traffic (Colonial does well over 40,000 rounds/year), balls would run into the snarly rough or sit down more requiring a heavier hit.

Colonial is full of strategy off the tee in terms of club selection and hitting the correct side of the fairway.  The greens are small, perched, and tightly (and deeply) bunkered.  You just can't miss on the short side, so one is often just trying to hit the middle of the green.

The greens themselves aren't heavily contoured, but the breaks are there and they're very subtle.  When it is windy, which it often is, they're extremely frustrating.

The course is overtreed for my taste in several spots, 3, 7, 12, 15, 18 (particularly before the hanging tree on the left side fell), and they make the conditioning difficult.

Though it is described as a short course, most of the good golfers in the big daily game played from the second set of tees.  It is much more than a great club course for amateurs, though its flat terrain, only two par 5s, and a bunch of very demanding par 4s reduces its appeal for me.

Colonial is a great family club.  

[Sam Morrow]

I don't think people realize how small the greens are at Colonial and the greenside bunkers are much deeper than they look. I think often times courses like Colonial (more subtle features) don't translate well into TV.

[Steve Salmen]

It is my understanding that Hogan had a greater influence on Colonial than what has been written above.  Apparently he's responsible for the destruction of a really great set of Maxwell greens, in favor of flatter surfaces that were more consistent with his view that golf is about shot making, not putting.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[John_Conley]

Also, did Gretzky or Jordan ever coach? 

4 seasons as Head Coach for the Phoenix Coyotes.

[Ed Oden]

Does Harbour Town have any architectural merit?

[Jay Flemma]

It's actually a great story in architectural problem solving because they couldn't put the course on the racki to get more length...so they found an innovative solution...

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=1263

“We couldn’t add raw distance,” began Colonial’s Matt Blake, “so we pitched some fairways back just a bit so that drives don’t run out as much. This is designed to only affect players using the tips, not the other sets of tees. We also added bunkers to pinch landing areas on a few holes, and moved some bunkers further back, so that they are still the same strategic challenge that the architects intended.”

It worked. The course’s length only increased a mere 180 yards. With fairways contoured to prevent long rollouts and gigantic forward bounces which leave a flip wedge in, Colonial will still reward the shotmaker. With greenside bunkers moved closer to greens, and fairway bunkers moved further out from the tee boxes, the course will play as it has in years past. Foster also removed some trees behind greens, built green surrounds that can be “short cut” to closely shaved areas which allow myriad options: bump and run, pitch and check, putt, or chip.

Foster’s tie-ins and shaping were natural and smooth. Most importantly, the course looked and played as it has for many years.

[Lou_Duran]

It is my understanding that Hogan had a greater influence on Colonial than what has been written above.  Apparently he's responsible for the destruction of a really great set of Maxwell greens, in favor of flatter surfaces that were more consistent with his view that golf is about shot making, not putting.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

From my conversations with a Colonial official who dealt with updates to the club's recorded history, the founder's daughter, and others with some knowledge regarding the construction of the course, Hogan had minimal if any input.  The course is attributed to Bredemus, with Maxwell doing considerable work on the greens.  However, Ralph Plummer, Bredemus' construction foreman and an architect himself, bulit the course (ref. IMO piece on Plummer).  Byron Nelson and Jackie Burke Jr., both who worked with Plummer on golf courses, told me that they thought Plummer had more to do with the design of Colonial than anyone else.

Though Colonial greens are smaller than what Plummer typically built (Shady Oaks, Great Southwest, Champions, Preston Trail), they had similar gentle slopes and deceptive contours.  When running fast, from the wrong sections of the greens, these could nonetheless break sharply and run forever.

If you have a source for Hogan's influence, I would like to learn about it.  From what I heard about Hogan's involvement in the Trophy Club and Shady Oaks, he didn't seem to have much interest in design.  Considering how much time he spent on practice and on his club company, perhaps that's understandable. 

 

[Sean_A]

Also, did Gretzky or Jordan ever coach? 

4 seasons as Head Coach for the Phoenix Coyotes.

How did that turn out for The Great One?

Colonial looks a bit boring if we are talking about competing with the best courses, but otherwise fine. 

Ciao

[Tom Yost]

Also, did Gretzky or Jordan ever coach? 

4 seasons as Head Coach for the Phoenix Coyotes.

.473 record

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