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Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2011, 02:12:56 PM »
Huntley Division, #7 Seed, CC of Fairfield, Hole #9, 200 yards

At least six of Seth Raynor’s designs routinely vie for inclusion among the world top one hundred golf courses, making some modern architects sniff that his work garners too much attention/praise. After all, they argue, the man repeated numerous design themes throughout his designs. To them, this is a sign of weakness as perhaps Raynor was running low on original ideas and concepts of his own. Such comments probably are born out of jealousy, primarily at the fact this engineer was afforded the opportunity to work on so many excellent sites. Fairfield is, of course, one such site and indeed, the author looks at Raynor’s appreciation of the Redan as a blessing. Take here at the ninth for instance. Without a preconceived desire for such a right to left falling hole, what architect would have seen that this abrupt hillside presented the perfect opportunity into which to bench a Redan green? Probably not many and one of the world’s three or four great Redans would never have been built. Hepner pronounces the ninth to be ‘as strong a Redan as you will ever find as it features a great angle and no background, plus the most uniquely contoured approach area that I’ve seen.’



« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 07:51:13 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2011, 02:13:25 PM »
Mucci Division, #7 Seed, CC of Charleston, Hole #11,

"THE coolest Redan I have played" - Chip Gaskins




Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2011, 02:15:12 PM »
Vander Borght, #7 Seed, St Louis CC, Hole #16,



Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2011, 02:15:34 PM »
Vander Borght, #8 Seed, Mountain Lake, Hole #11, 182 yards



Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2011, 02:15:48 PM »
Mucci Division, #8 Seed, Forsgate (Banks), Hole #7, 217 yards

Redan named after the Turkish fortification at Gallipoli during the Crimean War, the original Redan is the 15th hole at North Berwick in Scotland. The hole honestly lives up to it's name.



Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2011, 02:16:20 PM »
Huntley Division, #8 Seed, Mountaintop, Hole #11, 189 yards

And while I'm at it, here's a modern interpretation of the redan at the Tom Fazio designed Mountaintop in Cashiers, NC.  At first I didn't like how subtle the 'kick' short-right of the green is, since this is a clear departure from a traditional redan.  However, as I thought about it more, I realized the hole was likely designed in this manner because of the firm and fast nature of the golf course.  In another thread the question was asked whether fast greens have rendered traditional redans unplayable.  I suppose the answer in modern architecture is to make the kick more subtle.



« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 07:51:38 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2011, 02:16:39 PM »
TEPaul Division, #8 Seed, Tamarack, Hole #7, 187 yards

This hole was once a lot longer according to Paul Runyon--I had to drive him by the course on the way to a hotel in Greenwich back in 1989.  We stood in the parking lot for a few minutes while he reminised how the course used to give him fits because the bunkers were so deep.  He pointed to this hole and said it was the longest Redan that they used to play back in the day.  I think the tee used to be back forty yards which would make things kick accross the green better.  I currently does not play anything like a Redan.



Here is the view of Tamarack's #7 Redan hole from the tee box.  You can see the fairway bunker 50 yards short of the green, but there are 2 giant bunkers front left and back right, which are not even visible from the tee box.


This picture gives a sense of the size of the right rear bunker (behind the huge hill on the green).  The picture was taken from the 8th tee, to the right of the hole and looking across the green.  You can also see how the rectangular green is actually angled 45 degrees so the front left bunker actually has greater carry the further to the left you go (although it looks parallel from the tee).  Makes the back left pin particularly sneaky for those trying to carry the front left bunker.


This picture, from the left of the hole, gives nice perspective of the front left "hole" bunker.  Note from the size of the pin, how deep this bunker actually is, standing in it, you are a good 10-12 feet below the putting surface.  One of my least favorite places at Tamarack!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 03:59:26 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2011, 02:18:04 PM »
TEPaul Division, #9 Seed, Kingsley, Hole #16, 225 yards

From Tim Bert: From the tips, a low runner well right of the target works rather well.  Mike teed his ball up on this hole and hit his shot well right of the green.  It was far enough right that I recall thinking he must have really pushed it out there to the right.  He seemed pleased enough with himself despite what appeared to be a lackluster effort.  Well, we all learned the lesson of "architect knows best" as we watched his ball land well right, bounce and roll to the left, disappear from view behind a small mound, reappear on the green, and trickle left until it settled rather nicely on the green not too far from the pin.




Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2011, 02:18:19 PM »
Huntley Division, #9 Seed, Glen Mills, Hole #14, 161 yards



« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 07:51:51 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2011, 02:18:59 PM »
Mucci Division, #9 Seed, Knoll (West), Hole #3, 206 yards




Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2011, 02:19:16 PM »
Vander Borght, #9 Seed, Dormie Club, Hole #7, 203 yards



Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2011, 02:19:44 PM »
Vander Borght, #10 Seed, North Shore, Hole #9, 178 yards




Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2011, 02:19:57 PM »
Mucci Division, #10 Seed, Stevens Ranch, Hole #7, 204 yards

From Benham: Comments about the hole from my playing partners did not support the hole as a true Redan, the front to back slope was not severe enough and the front right of the green didn't provide the proper kick to the rear of the green.  Unfortunately, we did not get to see the true effect of this hole as the hole location was front right both days.



Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2011, 02:20:30 PM »
Huntley Division, #10 Seed, Kiawah Island (Ocean), Hole #8, 197 yards

Pete Dye’s Comment: The only key here is the front part of the approach to the green is short mowed grass.  Downwind, players will have to hit it short hoping it bounces up there.  Into the wind, it’ll be an easy hole, but downwind it could be a nightmare.  The water behind the green shouldn’t come into play.





« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 07:52:17 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2011, 02:20:59 PM »
TEPaul Division, #10 Seed, Rivermont, Hole #4, 195 yards

From Kyle Christensen - I have been fortunate to play a lot of the great redan holes in the U.S. and I put this one up there with the best. Both times I have played this hole I have had the great fortune of putting it in the front bunker. I don't have any shots around the green but I could easily spend all day messing around on this hole from 10 yards and in.




Barry Cohen

Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2011, 03:34:37 PM »
In response to your comments on Tamarack #7, the photos you show are not of the hole.  The first photo is the 3rd green (Eden), the second and third pictures are of the Par 4 6th hole (Alps).

You should look at the 3 photos I posted on the original nomination pages.

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2011, 04:00:10 PM »
Thanks Barry! Fixed!

JLahrman

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2011, 04:06:43 PM »
Also, it's "Camargo", not "Carmargo"...

Bill Brightly

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2011, 04:34:53 PM »
Great job organizing these photos into one thread!

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Seeding
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2011, 07:09:44 PM »
Also, it's "Camargo", not "Carmargo"...

Fixed!

Mac Plumart

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Full Roster Preview!
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2011, 07:43:35 PM »
Richard...really neat thread.

But let me see if I got this...

In the TEPaul Division, does 1 play 10, and 2 play 9, etc?  If so, The 'Mont got a tough draw with the original as its first round game.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Full Roster Preview!
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2011, 07:47:14 PM »
Thanks Mac, this took awhile...

There will be first round "play-in" games just like you had with the real March Madness.

#7 will play #10 and #8 will play #9. The winners of the first match will play #2 in the second round and the winners of the second match will play #1 in each division.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Full Roster Preview!
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2011, 07:52:25 PM »
Got it!  Cool!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Full Roster Preview!
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2011, 08:04:06 PM »
I want to note that the seeding is fairly arbitrary and I am open to adjustments.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Template Hole Madness! Redan - Full Roster Preview!
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2011, 02:27:08 AM »
Richard

No room for Fishers Island #2 in your 40 listed ?