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Gary_K

Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2011, 12:09:47 AM »
I’ll throw my 2 cents in (probably not even worth that), I don’t like it.  I guess I could leave it at that but, I’ll explain why.   I look at this hole and feel like Tom Hanks in the movie Big. The scene where he’s in a meeting with the toy maker big-wigs and playing with the skyscraper robot and then says ‘I don’t get it’.  Why a skyscraper robot, what fun is that?  Why this for an opening hole, what fun is that?  What fun is the rest of course going to be after running into this on the first hole?  

There doesn’t appear to any advantage going to the narrow right fairway.  Smaller target, more risk and your reward is playing over the bunkers to pin.  That’s if you aren’t blocked by the hazard tree.  

Going left will result in a longer shot (if the tree allows an unobstructed 2nd) however, this route provides a chance to chase a thinly hit second shot onto the green.  This is fine except the hazard tree.

I don’t know what a guy that has real life jump up on the day of his tee time and he arrives in the parking lot 5 minutes before teeing off, sculls a drive short of the crossing bunkers, has no chance at reaching the green in two and has to hit a ribbon of fairway that’s narrower than the green to leave himself a half-way decent chip.  That second shot layup is going to be a big challenge for anyone trying to layup short after a poorly hit drive or just short hitters.

That previous paragraph is probably flawed in that even if the guy is arriving 5 minutes before his tee time, he will have 20-30 minutes to warm up because your average and worse golfers will likely struggle on this opening hole and back everything up.  

Suggestions:  Remove the tree between the fairways that can leave a good drive in the fairway dead for a second shot, replace it with one of the crossing bunkers.  Remove the forward right bunker, average golfers tend to miss short right on second shots, hey put a bunker there and give them a 30-40 yard bunker shot for their 3rd, they love those, slow things down some more on the opening hole.  Keep the two levels of fairway but make it one wide fairway, remove the tongue of rough and the shrubs (what? why? shrubs? May as well put a 6’ diameter of hole of water there, plays the same if hit into).  Double the width of the fairway from the hazard tree to the green to give a recovery shot a target.  Move the other crossing bunker to the tip of the tongue of the existing rough, but allow the crossing bunker to be playable for a layup shot, not too deep faced.

Remove the gimmicks, create interest with the crossing bunkers (one is a hazard, the other is for aiming/definition) and get the golfers onto the course without beating them over the head with a bad score due to hole being tricked-up.  That may have been a harsh review, long frustrating day at work, but looking at this hole just doesn’t look like it and the rest of course will be any fun.  

Looking at the course aerial, there doesn't appear to be any other holes that look like this one.

Gary K.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 12:36:42 AM by Gary Kurth »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2011, 03:01:03 AM »
The hole seems okay, but I don't understand the tree short of the green.  It seems to be in play no matter which fairway one chooses.  The green seems to play best from the upper fairway and thus the tree can negate what is a perfectly well placed shot to take advantage of the length of the green (as oppossed to hitting at the width of the green from the lower fairway).  The hole looks like it would be improved if the tree were taken out and some of the aesthetics from the tee improved.  Plus, rip out that dreadful bush.

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2011, 07:43:47 AM »
It took me a while to figure it out, my memory is slipping.  I've played it, but I lived in the area for 3 1/2 years and played every course within 30 miles!  I actually liked the course more than I thought I would.  The holes across the road are pretty cool.  As for this hole, it's just plain silly to me.
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Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2011, 07:49:19 AM »
Way too much going on here - simplify.

Convert the rough cut, that splits the fairway, to fairway cut - might require some grading to make it smooth enough for fairways mowers.

Eliminate the pampas grass

Move the cart path to the right - if it is safe to do so

Cut down the tree in front of the green

Widen the approach cut left, if it's not too steep to maintain, half way up the slope - to allow a running shot to kick and roll onto the green



« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 07:54:15 AM by Bradley Anderson »

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2011, 09:35:33 AM »
There are way too many trees.


Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Chris_Clouser

Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2011, 09:46:56 AM »
Joe,

Here is my list of complaints.

You get no real advantage by executing the more precise shot.  You have a much worse angle into the green.  Also it appears that unless you are on the very right edge of that portion of the fairway your shot could still be blocked by the tree.

The cartpath is in view off the tee and distracts from the hole.

Bunker placement is terrible.  The two short of the fairway actually provide a safe harbor for those that fail to make it to the fairway.  The rough should be the penalty for those that fail to make the heroic carry.  A fairway bunker should go along the inside of the right side of the hole if you are going to have one.  It looks like that may have been the case at one point from the photo.  Also the bunker short of the green superfluous.  The greenside bunker should be expanded to come closer to the green and run alongside the entire front tongue. 

Also, if the tree is not removed, the rough in the middle of the fairway provides a double jeopardy for the player as the tree is in their way.  Either make it fairway or eliminate the tree.  I'm fine with splitting the fairway effectively with either one, but just one.  Personally I think the tree might be the better option. 

Lastly, get the little shrubs or grass plants out of the field of play.  If there are to the sides that is one thing but in the field of play, just not acceptable. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2011, 11:09:09 AM »
I’ll throw my 2 cents in (probably not even worth that), I don’t like it.  I guess I could leave it at that but, I’ll explain why.   I look at this hole and feel like Tom Hanks in the movie Big. The scene where he’s in a meeting with the toy maker big-wigs and playing with the skyscraper robot and then says ‘I don’t get it’.  Why a skyscraper robot, what fun is that?  Why this for an opening hole, what fun is that?  What fun is the rest of course going to be after running into this on the first hole?  

There doesn’t appear to any advantage going to the narrow right fairway.  Smaller target, more risk and your reward is playing over the bunkers to pin.  That’s if you aren’t blocked by the hazard tree.  

Going left will result in a longer shot (if the tree allows an unobstructed 2nd) however, this route provides a chance to chase a thinly hit second shot onto the green.  This is fine except the hazard tree.

I don’t know what a guy that has real life jump up on the day of his tee time and he arrives in the parking lot 5 minutes before teeing off, sculls a drive short of the crossing bunkers, has no chance at reaching the green in two and has to hit a ribbon of fairway that’s narrower than the green to leave himself a half-way decent chip.  That second shot layup is going to be a big challenge for anyone trying to layup short after a poorly hit drive or just short hitters.

That previous paragraph is probably flawed in that even if the guy is arriving 5 minutes before his tee time, he will have 20-30 minutes to warm up because your average and worse golfers will likely struggle on this opening hole and back everything up.  

Suggestions:  Remove the tree between the fairways that can leave a good drive in the fairway dead for a second shot, replace it with one of the crossing bunkers.  Remove the forward right bunker, average golfers tend to miss short right on second shots, hey put a bunker there and give them a 30-40 yard bunker shot for their 3rd, they love those, slow things down some more on the opening hole.  Keep the two levels of fairway but make it one wide fairway, remove the tongue of rough and the shrubs (what? why? shrubs? May as well put a 6’ diameter of hole of water there, plays the same if hit into).  Double the width of the fairway from the hazard tree to the green to give a recovery shot a target.  Move the other crossing bunker to the tip of the tongue of the existing rough, but allow the crossing bunker to be playable for a layup shot, not too deep faced.

Remove the gimmicks, create interest with the crossing bunkers (one is a hazard, the other is for aiming/definition) and get the golfers onto the course without beating them over the head with a bad score due to hole being tricked-up.  That may have been a harsh review, long frustrating day at work, but looking at this hole just doesn’t look like it and the rest of course will be any fun.  

Looking at the course aerial, there doesn't appear to be any other holes that look like this one.

Gary K.

+1 An deeper explanation of my thoughts.

Must be a Pennsy course. Who else but those Pennsy wierdos would foist such a thing on the general population.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2011, 12:06:51 PM »
Always tough to tell from photographs but it looks to me that the hole would be ok if the tree were cut down and if the green slopes work well (which I cannot tell).  I would guess many drives wind up right and that the left fairway is more difficult to hit.  It would then set up a choice between a better view/angle vs. being closer to the green.  

My general view is that split fairways rarely work but this one might without the tree in front of the green.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 12:08:45 PM by Jason Topp »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2011, 12:21:58 PM »
The hole may be unconventional....

..but I'd much rather play something like that day in and day out over the mass deluge of holes one normally sees on joe blow muni, dead straight, little bunkering, unimaginative green, flat, boring, etc, etc.

I remain baffled over the number of folks on this site who skewer/detest the average boring golf hole..but when something different like this is presented, go on to skewer this as well.

I guess some folks will never be pleased unless its a hole at Cypress or NGLA.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2011, 12:31:51 PM »
The hole may be unconventional....

..but I'd much rather play something like that day in and day out over the mass deluge of holes one normally sees on joe blow muni, dead straight, little bunkering, unimaginative green, flat, boring, etc, etc.

I remain baffled over the number of folks on this site who skewer/detest the average boring golf hole..but when something different like this is presented, go on to skewer this as well.

I guess some folks will never be pleased unless its a hole at Cypress or NGLA.

Excuse me Kalen, but did you find the pictures of the green to be imaginative? I bet you would rather play joe blow canyon muni in your home town far more than you would this one.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, I would rather play the munis in my home town over this one if this hole is at all representative of the course.
Maybe Joe will give us a course tour, after chewing on our analysis of the first hole.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 12:33:52 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2011, 12:44:09 PM »
The hole may be unconventional....

..but I'd much rather play something like that day in and day out over the mass deluge of holes one normally sees on joe blow muni, dead straight, little bunkering, unimaginative green, flat, boring, etc, etc.

I remain baffled over the number of folks on this site who skewer/detest the average boring golf hole..but when something different like this is presented, go on to skewer this as well.

I guess some folks will never be pleased unless its a hole at Cypress or NGLA.

Excuse me Kalen, but did you find the pictures of the green to be imaginative? I bet you would rather play joe blow canyon muni in your home town far more than you would this one.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, I would rather play the munis in my home town over this one if this hole is at all representative of the course.
Maybe Joe will give us a course tour, after chewing on our analysis of the first hole.

Compared to the boring crappola I see on 90% of munis...hell yes!  Even if its not everyone's cup of tea, at least it was an attempt to do something different.  And to boot, for a site that's always crying about how they want more options when playing a golf hole, I see far more options/variety on this hole than your average dead straight muni hole.

P.S.  Indian Canyon has a split fairway hole and I think that one is cool too!  ;)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2011, 12:55:00 PM »


Compared to the boring crappola I see on 90% of munis...hell yes!  ...

I forgot, you used to live in Utah.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2011, 01:00:41 PM »


Compared to the boring crappola I see on 90% of munis...hell yes!  ...

I forgot, you used to live in Utah.


The majority of Utah munis were "boring"....but there were plenty of others to go around that made golfing interesting as well!   ;)

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 01:28:26 PM »
Couple more thoughts.

It does not take that much technological savy to discover what course this is.  I'm surprised that it is not a Rick Jacobson course - mainly, I'm surprised that two different architects would not only create so similar of a hole, but open with that hole.  

If this hole plays anything like Augustine #1, the tree is not taken out of play by selecting one or the other fairway.  If you go toward the longer, left fairway, it is in play unless you hit it in the center or left side of the fairway (and going too far left will require you to deal with other trees).  If you go right, it is in play unless you hit the right side of the fairway.  

On this incarnation, depending on how penal the rough is, the safest play might be to aim for the right rough if you are long enough to clear the bunkers (and if you are not, you're kind of screwed anyway).  At Augustine, going "right-right" was bad because there was very little no rough - if you missed the fairway, you were pretty much in the tree-grown "crap," and even if you ended up on the right side of the fairway, tree branches could impede your second shot - left-left (to avoid the tree) was probably the best play but it lengthened the hole by a decent bit and you risked having no approach due to the fact that part of the green is tucked behind the tree line.

I actually think it's a decent concept, but I just think the tree is too penal for most golfers.  Either widen both fairways and remove the treeline (which would allow a third option - go SHORT of the split fairway.  Now doing so provides no chance at the green), or get rid of the tree and penalize the rough in the middle, tempting the golfer to go as close to the middle as possible without ending up in the junk.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 01:33:13 PM by Justin Sadowsky »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 01:34:48 PM »
Pretty good stuff so far guys.

I'm hoping more (some?!) archies will weigh in here too.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2011, 04:25:42 PM »
This hole is from the Loch Nairn golf course in Avondale, PA.  A quick Google search turned up a very fine article reviewing the course:

http://www.pennsylvaniagolf.com/course-reviews/loch-naire-golf-club.htm

My complete photo album is now available at MyPhillyGolf.com (with a recent milestone on the site as over 100 courses are present in the Bausch Collection):

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/LochNairn/index.html

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2011, 04:28:57 PM »
So Joe,

We're all waiting with bated breath...

....what did you think of the hole??!   ;D

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2011, 04:51:05 PM »
So Joe,

We're all waiting with bated breath...

....what did you think of the hole??!   ;D

Compared to the hole as it was originally, where the green was perched up behind those bunkers and was about 275 yards long, this is re-do is outstanding.  I think it would be better situated later in a round, but that is nit-pickin'.  My biggest gripe is the junk pine trees to the right which makes it a bit hard to figure out the hole runs if you are a first time visitor. 

I think my one photo from the upper left fw gives the impression that the tree is pretty much in play.  Which I don't think is always the case.  If you are in the middle or to the left part of the upper fw, you really don't have to deal with that tree at all.  It rewards the longer drive to that part for a clean line into the green, and probably the best place to be if you wish to attack a sucker pin back right.  A shorter drive to the right, lower fw is a poorer angle into the green and brings the two bunkers near the green more into play.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: evaluate this hole for me
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2011, 06:16:14 PM »
So Joe,

We're all waiting with bated breath...

....what did you think of the hole??!   ;D

Compared to the hole as it was originally, where the green was perched up behind those bunkers and was about 275 yards long, this is re-do is outstanding.  I think it would be better situated later in a round, but that is nit-pickin'.  My biggest gripe is the junk pine trees to the right which makes it a bit hard to figure out the hole runs if you are a first time visitor. 

I think my one photo from the upper left fw gives the impression that the tree is pretty much in play.  Which I don't think is always the case.  If you are in the middle or to the left part of the upper fw, you really don't have to deal with that tree at all.  It rewards the longer drive to that part for a clean line into the green, and probably the best place to be if you wish to attack a sucker pin back right.  A shorter drive to the right, lower fw is a poorer angle into the green and brings the two bunkers near the green more into play.

So you prefer mid length par 4s with tree hazards in play over drivable par 4s. Don't tell Tom Doak.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne