[Adam Clayman]

Play down?
Ryan, Come on out to Holyoke and see if you can play our simple little track?

[Tom ORourke]

How much strategy can there be when wedges are hit into those greens ?
Not as much as I would like to see, but not every hole is a wedge. #2 should see some number going for the green in 2. #3 can play long. One of the Walker Cup matches played the 3rd hole from the 6th tee and it was a 270 yard par 3 instead of 215. #4 will see some attempts at getting home in 2. #5 will be a mid-iron. #6 is strong enough, especially if a driver is not used. #9 is  at least a 7 iron. Then the course gets short but the greens on 12, 14, 15 and 16 are challenging. And #17 and #18 are not short irons. Yes, the middle holes are wedge-fests, but Merion is short where it is short, and long where it is long. I expect low scores but everyone is going to make some number of bogies. These guys are going to have a lot of wedges unless you build an 8,000 yard course. I think Merion has enough non-wedge holes to challenge anyone other than Bubba Watson. It is not Congressional or Bethpage, but should have enough tough shots to keep the players on their toes.

[JR Potts]

Play down?
Ryan, Come on out to Holyoke and see if you can play our simple little track?

I'd love to....need to ditch this work, kids, wife thing and get out and see the world.

[ChipOat]

Adam:

Yes, I can identify the "garden spot" on each hole but so can about a zillion other guys that love Merion.

Chris:

I couldn't disagree with you more about the tee shot on #4.  The only flat spot is along the right rough next to the fairway bunker - classic Hugh Wilson strategic design.  As for the auto-layup, those days are long gone and Tom O'Rourke beat me to it.  In 1971, it was a big deal when Lanny Wadkins hit driver + driver to get across the creek in two shots (he never actually got it on the green).  Now, a big 3 metal (there's a cross bunker at 350 yards - and it's become reachable!) and a strong 4 iron ought to work as the second shot is downhill.

Mike Sweeney:

David Graham hit 17 fairways in his final round of the '81 Open?  I only count 14 - where are the other three?

Tom Doak:

I surely don't have your eye or your expertise but how/where is Merion currently "tearing up the course"?  The new tee box on #14 provides a questionable angle over a Stop Sign (sort of like #17 at TOC?) but, assuming they take that down, it's a hell of a hole from back there.  The new tee box on #9 seems alright from what my untrained eye can see.  The new tee box on #7 points the player right straight at the OB, so that will require a little thought.  The other new tee boxes (#'s 3,5,6,12,14,15,17 and 18) were all put in place for the 2004 Amateur and seemed to work well for that event and the subsequent Walker Cup.

What's happening now that you don't especially care for?

[Chris Cupit]

Obviously the weather will play a huge role but if more than 5% of all players go for #4 green in two I'd be surprised.  Assuming the fairway is 26 yards wide I can assure you no player will give a hoot about a flat lie for their lay up shot.  No professional would risk hitting a ball in a bunker or rough to avoid an awkward fairway shot--they are too good to care about that minor inconvenience.

I like the hole and don't think there is anything wrong with it playing as a three shotter for the best players. I just don't think the guys feeing it up there are concerned about which side of the fairway they hit.

The freakish lengths you often hear about occur at the US Am more so than the US Open.  The pros play a much more controlled game off the tee.also, course management is still quite different between those two groups of payers. 

[Sean_A]

Devil's Advocate Time (or Reality Check, I'm not sure):

The trouble isn't Merion (or any other golf course in the world). The trouble is our pre-occupation and parrot-like yammering on about  'strategic thinking'.  No matter what the golf course, there is very little 'thinking' required to play golf. You can aim to the left side of the fairway or to the right, to the right side of the green/pin or to the left. One practice round and it's suddenly crystal clear: all black or white, all right or wrong. That's not 'thinking'; geez, that's barely even 'choice'.  It's binary, it's how computer's 'think' -- and goodness help us if that's what passes for 'thinking' in the modern world. By comparison, a much maligned and Rees Jones-doctored US Open course where it's straight up the middle every single time, requires, at the very most, exactly 50% less 'thinking'.  

Peter      

Pietro

Of course you are right.  Strategy for the pros off the tee is really about distance VS risk.  There aren't too mnay holes which tax the thinking after a few rounds unless tehre is serious wind and/or f&f conditions prevalent.  This is probably true for us schmucks as well only less so because we "can't afford to give up distance".  Oddly, around the greens is where our games diversify immensely.  Guys at my level really do have serious questions asked of them if they know their limitations.  The pros are so good that most often the recovery back to the green is very one dimensional.  For us it can be a real head scratcher to take our medicine or go for glory.  Bottom line, for the pros, strategy is executing and then seeing if they can make the putts. 

Ciao

[JESII]

These type of threads baffle me. Can "tee-shot strategy" be defined as the attempt to select a line and distance to hit the tee shot in order to increase the chances of making the lowest score possible considering the features the hole presents at that point in time? Or something similar?

[Kyle Harris]

These type of threads baffle me. Can "tee-shot strategy" be defined as the attempt to select a line and distance to hit the tee shot in order to increase the chances of making the lowest score possible considering the features the hole presents at that point in time? Or something similar?

Sounds spot on to me.

[Dan Herrmann]

Chip - Boy, we disagree on the new tee on #14.  I think it's a joke, but then again, I don't hit the ball 300 yards.

As far as "tearing up the course" (Doak) ---  In early April, I made a combination bagel run/Golf House Road trip and couldn't believe where that silver-colored tarp was on "#14".  I originally thought to myself, "Are they expanding the size of the practice putting green?"    When I found out about the new tee and actually spent time standing on the tee looking at the "new #14", I felt like that Native American from the 70's commercial that cried a tear when he saw people littering on his sacred land.

Lord knows what else Fazio has in mind.  But I'm not expecting good things.  I can only hope that Mike Davis brings some sanity to the situation and helps to protect "the old lady" known as Merion East.

[JESII]

Dan,

I don't know where the new tee might be, but 2 years ago I played with a friend who is very good, and longer than most and he hit 3 wood up to the crest and an 8 or 9 iron 10 feet left of a 3/4 deep pin. This was from the back of the then back tee. What do you propose? There's about 75 yards behind that tee before you bother anybody else...

[DMoriarty]

Where is the new back tee on 14?

[Jerry Kluger]

At what point does great architecture lose its character and quality?  If the course was designed without the thought of rock hard greens or greens stimping at 12 does it lose its character when those conditions are introduced anymore than say cutting fairway width by 30 or 40%?  I don't know the answer but the question is certainly a difficult one.

[JESII]

Wouldn't a golf course's "character and quality" change daily and perpetually?

Every course is different to every person every day.

If you think Merion is a lesser course because they added a tee for the US Open guys to play you should probably check your priorities regarding golf course evaluation.

[Sean Leary]

Chip - Boy, we disagree on the new tee on #14.  I think it's a joke, but then again, I don't hit the ball 300 yards.

As far as "tearing up the course" (Doak) ---  In early April, I made a combination bagel run/Golf House Road trip and couldn't believe where that silver-colored tarp was on "#14".  I originally thought to myself, "Are they expanding the size of the practice putting green?"    When I found out about the new tee and actually spent time standing on the tee looking at the "new #14", I felt like that Native American from the 70's commercial that cried a tear when he saw people littering on his sacred land.

Lord knows what else Fazio has in mind.  But I'm not expecting good things.  I can only hope that Mike Davis brings some sanity to the situation and helps to protect "the old lady" known as Merion East.

Dan,  What makes you think that they are Fazio's ideas? I thought the USGA was the one who was pushing changes more than anyone....

Also, I don't get why everyone gets antsy about new back tees. Who cares, if you aren't going to play it?

[Kalen Braley]

I'd be curious to know where the new back tee for 14 is as well.

Based on the aerials, it looks like the putting practice green is behind 14 tee, and if you go back too far you'd be right in range to get struck by a ball from #1 tee.

P.S.  Where are the tees for 15?  Do they now share the space with the right fairway on 16?

[jonathan_becker]

Kalen,

15 tee goes down the hill and to the right which turns into 16 fairway.

[JESII]

I'd be curious to know where the new back tee for 14 is as well.

Based on the aerials, it looks like the putting practice green is behind 14 tee, and if you go back too far you'd be right in range to get struck by a ball from #1 tee.

P.S.  Where are the tees for 15?  Do they now share the space with the right fairway on 16?

Kalen,

How many of those US Open guys do you figure will cold shank their three-irons off that first tee?

[Kalen Braley]

I'd be curious to know where the new back tee for 14 is as well.

Based on the aerials, it looks like the putting practice green is behind 14 tee, and if you go back too far you'd be right in range to get struck by a ball from #1 tee.

P.S.  Where are the tees for 15?  Do they now share the space with the right fairway on 16?

Kalen,

How many of those US Open guys do you figure will cold shank their three-irons off that first tee?

I would hope none...but I was thinking more of day to day member play.

Unless a new tee on 14 would only be used for the big boys....which would seem like a waste to build a new tee just for one tourney.

[JESII]

I would imagine any of the members could play the new tee if they wanted...just as they could on any hole there.

[JESII]

and since the course is short enough, you could play 3-iron off a bunch of tees, keeping the ball in play but you'll have longer 6-7-8 irons to greens that are hard to hit.. or hit driver, and have a wedge but you have to hit the fairway.

Phillipe,

I'm not sure there are any holes that actually offer this choice. Merion has long holes where players will hit a driver or 3wood and some sort of middle to long iron and they have short holes that will rarely call for a driver and will always leave some sort of wedge.

Of the 12 par 4's, my read is:

1 - Hybrid/PW
5 - Driver/Mid-long iron
6 - Drive/Mid-long iron
7 - 3iron/Wedge
8 - 3iron/SW
10 - 3W/chip or 3 iron/SW
11 - 3iron/PW
12 - Driver or 3W/PW-8iron
14 - Old tee 3W/7 or 8iron
    - New tee Driver/mid-long iron (I guess
15 - 3W 7 or 8iron
16 - 3W or Hybrid/7 or 8iron
18 - Driver/5iron

[Kalen Braley]

I would imagine any of the members could play the new tee if they wanted...just as they could on any hole there.

There is the hazard then!! 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I figure that the following holes will require more than wedge for over 50 % of the field.
Numbers 3-5-6-9-14-16-17-18...that is almost half of the golf course, so it will not be merely a wedge shot event.

The qulaity of the long par threes with the greens they are hitting to may well be the single biggest determinant of who ends up as champion...he who handles those holes the best will be in with a serious shout.

But Merion is more than about hitting short irons into the rest of the holes, the green complexes will create huge challenges to the players, greens like numbers, 3,7,11,14,15,16,17 and 18 are so tough to putt especially if you are not on the correct side of the hole.
Personally I think the course will hold up quite well to the threat of low scores, but as Tom Doak said, so what as long as good golf wins.

[JMEvensky]

I figure that the following holes will require more than wedge for over 50 % of the field.
Numbers 3-5-6-9-14-16-17-18...that is almost half of the golf course, so it will not be merely a wedge shot event.

The qulaity of the long par threes with the greens they are hitting to may well be the single biggest determinant of who ends up as champion...he who handles those holes the best will be in with a serious shout.

But Merion is more than about hitting short irons into the rest of the holes, the green complexes will create huge challenges to the players, greens like numbers, 3,7,11,14,15,16,17 and 18 are so tough to putt especially if you are not on the correct side of the hole.
Personally I think the course will hold up quite well to the threat of low scores, but as Tom Doak said, so what as long as good golf wins.

M W-P,check your inbox.It turns out we have a mutual friend.

[Dan Herrmann]

The new tee on 14 is back in the direction of the first green.  I'm guessing it's 40-50 yards back from where they played during the Walker Cup.  It's right along Golf House Road and will require a shot over an existing stop sign at the junction of Exeter Road.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue for strategy will be determined by just how firm and fast the course is for the Open.

Let me also point out something regarding #18 - you get Quiros or any of the other big time bombers and they can easily hit a short iron if wind conditions permits (and I'm not speaking about a gale wind behind their back).

If Merion is soft then the boys can hit driver at-will and the approaches will hold quite nicely -- even with mid or even longer clubs.

If the place is close to brick hard then strategic choices will be needed to get in the right position.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()