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David_Madison

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Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« on: May 13, 2011, 09:51:05 AM »
Heresy warning! I'm going to get flamed here, but here goes...

[Disclosure - I love C&C's work. They are my favorite architects. Sand Hills is my favorite golf course, and Bandon Trails was my favorite at Bandon Dunes. I was expecting to fall in love with Dormie, and was especially excited because it's only an hour from where I live. And I played pretty well, scoring in the mid-70's from the tips. What I am writing below in a way saddens me.]

I played Dormie earlier this week. Lots of really good features, especially the greens complexes, the strategic use of the terrain, and many of the other things that make C&C courses great. There was, however, something about the course that made it feel disjointed to me, almost uncomfortable and in some ways unenjoyable.

It seemed that on way too many holes we hit our drives and then had to take a very wide detour around a natural area separating the teeing areas from the fairways. Besides the feeling that we walked 22 hilly holes while only playing 18, the wide detours made the holes feel disconnected. In some cases it felt like we were walking away from the course before returning to it somewhere up the fairway. While some of these detours may have been scenic, rarely did it feel like we were still connected to the hole. There never was the sense of hitting a tee shot and then moving forward thru the hole, and then forward and thru to the next hole and so on. Instead of playing an entire connected hole, we played shot vignettes. I never had the sense of where I was on the golf course in relationship to the clubhouse or any other place on the course, and can't ever remember feeling so disoriented while playing. While I certainly wanted to see the entire course, in a way I wanted to be done playing after completing six or seven holes.

Had there been walking trails through at least some of the natural areas I wouldn't have felt this disconnection. Maybe it's a money thing, and that in time we'll be able to walk a more direct route. And my guess is that with cart golf you wouldn't feel it either, at least not all that much. But the course was designed as a walking course, and in its current configuration I believe the routing is a serious negative.

Did any of you who have played the course have any similar thoughts, even if not as extreme?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 10:08:22 AM »
David, I found the site to be very awkward, perhaps the cause of what you are saying.

However, the day I played was my fourth day of walking hilly courses and my legs (and game) were shot.  I'm sure that flavors some of my thoughts of the course in retrospect.

I'm looking forward to another round when I'm fresher!

Terry Lavin

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 10:09:52 AM »
Haven't played there, but there's nothing wrong with the occasional heretic.  Your post got me to thinking, though.

A while back, after playing another iteration of minimalist architecture here in Chicago (atop a dump), I posted a thread asking the simple question, "Has Minimalism Jumped the Shark?"  To me, there is a danger of minimalism becoming so omnipresent among newer layouts that the courses will tend to blend together.  I have a fear that one could ultimately have the same conversations about C&C or Doak that have been held about Fazio.  Namely, "they all look the same".  Or, "nothing new here".  I say this with all good intentions, and mainly just to stir some dialogue, but isn't it almost guaranteed that minimalism will leave us with more sameness than the big earthmovers, the pond diggers and the fake creek makers leave us with?  Don't get me wrong, I am very excited about the work at Pinehurst #2.  I have a feeling that Streamsong will be a huge hit.  And personally, I'd play Sand Hills or Pac Dunes 100 times more often than my favorite Fazio.

Could we be nearing the end of the run for minimalism or is it truly a return to our roots that will keep on chugging, or at least remain popular in the context of a shrinking new course market?   
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Bill_McBride

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 10:17:21 AM »
I think the economics of golf in the next decade will keep minimalism in the forefront.

At least in the US.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 10:41:08 AM »
David - I've only played Dormie Club once and I don't think once is enough on any course to form a lasting opinion. But, having said that, my first impression of the course left me wondering why so many shots were played off hills from left to right... tee shots and approach shots. I didn't experience the disjointedness you described, but I can see how one might get that feeling. Like Bill, I am looking forward to a return trip to Dormie Club to give it a better look.

Terry - Good course design is good course design. Those of us on this site that travel around the world and visit these great courses are always looking for the "next big thing." We want to see the architects top themselves with each new course... how realistic is that? To say "they all look the same" or "nothing new here" is more a problem with us than with them. The vast majority of people who will play these courses will never be comparing them to a C&C or Doak course on the other side of the country or world. They could care less if some of the hole designs were reminiscent of something the architect created on another course. To us, however, it is too often "been there, done that." It's a bit sad really.

How cool would it be if a great course could be exactly reproduced at various locations around the country? What if you could create an exact copy of NGLA in South Carolina, Texas, Montana and California? But, you can't of course... which is why we get into all these comparisons and rankings.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Terry Lavin

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 10:43:50 AM »
To say "they all look the same" or "nothing new here" is more a problem with us than with them. The vast majority of people who will play these courses will never be comparing them to a C&C or Doak course on the other side of the country or world. They could care less if some of the hole designs were reminiscent of something the architect created on another course. To us, however, it is too often "been there, done that." It's a bit sad really.


Excellent points.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 11:02:30 AM »
I am trying to remember the long walks based on my one round there.
On #5, I believe, you walk around the lake's border.
To get to 7 tee, you walk past 14 tee.
From 8 green to the par 3 9 tee?
On 15, you walk way around to get to the fairway.

Personally, I didn't feel disjointed at DC. I tend to feel anticipation on those walks IF my ball is in the fairway.

My question to my playing partner was would we have liked DC as much IF you could see homes on the perimiter, compared to now where there is complete solitude.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:29:28 AM by Bruce Wellmon »

Matt_Ward

Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 11:25:56 AM »
David, et al:

Methinks one complain too much about the walking aspect. It was far from being extremely demanding or disconcerting. Try Bethpage Black and you will find a closer kin to what you mentioned.

One other thing -- TDC plays uphill on a number of shots and for many people this can be daunting. The par-5 17th is a great example of this -- there are others.

Here's the flip side -- there is no house clutter -- you are alone with just your buds and the hole in question. One also has to work the ball off the tee and the shotmaking elements are clearly solid in plenty of ways.

Be interested to hear more on this conversation and tone -- but if someone says the walking is out of place then I have a few other courses that are even more deserving of such distinction (shall I call it that).

Steve Goodwin

Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 01:23:30 PM »
Visited Dormie in February -- toured the course, didn't play.  And while I agree with David that the walks around hazards are less than ideal, they didn't seem like a major blemish.  I thought Dormie ranked right up there with Friar's Head and Bandon Trails.

For one thing, it's a beauty.  In February the colors were tawny and the course had a spare look to it.  I kept thinking about Coore's remark that he wants to design landscapes that just happen to have a golf hole in them.   The more I see of CC work, the more I think that there's a kind of artistry there that has its equal in MacKenzie and that's about it.   Their holes are elegant compositions.  Of course they have to work as golf holes, but when I think of Bandon Trails # 13, for instance, i don't remember how i played it; I remember that deep bunker on the right, and the reedy marsh, and the lush hill rising behind the green.  It's a charmed place, and I could go on about several other holes at BT or FH.  Dormie is in that same class.  To judge it only from the perspective of golf strategyis like judging a Ferrari only by its engine.  There's more to the package.

Second, re the feeling of "same old" -- it's true that there are elements of design, like the frequent use of sidehills to tempt a player or to provide an option, that CC have used elsewhere.  But there is nothing like the kind or repetition that Macdonald-Raynor employed.  When attempting to evaluate their courses, we don't look so much at the similarites as at the ways they have come up with variations, how the Redan at NGL differs from the Redan at Chicago and so on.   Here of course we enter into matters of connoiiseurship that can make us feel queasy, but there's no way around it (and it's better to be a connoisseur than a critic, I'd say).   In any case, no matter how intently we study a hole, I am completely sure that we give it far less attention than CC did (I couldn't believe the number of hours they put in at BT on some of the greens, esp #5).  If anyone is aware of the danger of repeating themselves, they are -- and I have do doubt that they do everything they can to avoid repeating themselves.   

Third, re the strategic challenges at Dormie -- I kept itching to play when I toured the course.   On just about every tee, the range of options is clear and intriguing.  Standing there, you realize that you need a plan of attack and there are several to choose from.   On this count, too, I think Dormie ranks not just with the best of CC but the best anywhere.

I won't be at all surprised to see the Dormie Club show up high in the ratings.   The greater suspense is what will happen to the property, which has already changed hands and is struggling to find some secure financial foundation.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 01:37:18 PM »
I played DC two weeks ago and found it exhilarating. I don't remember being put off by the walks at all. I loved having options into the greens. On many holes I hit the bump and run when I was out of position and on others I could fly it to the hole when my tee ball was properly placed. I'm not sure it is C&C's bets but it sure is good.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 01:55:58 PM »
David,

I have never played DC, but I completely understand what you are saying  about the routing.  There is one golf course in the Toronto area that made me feel the exactly same way.  There was an environmentally sensitive hazard/ravine that runs across the entire course and many tee shots required carries over it.  As a result after the tee shot one must walk down into the valley/ravine or around it and as a result don't come up into the fairway and get another view of the hole until you are nearly at your ball.  I ended up feeling like many holes blended together and got boring.  I know I have not explained this well, but I do fully understand what you are saying and agree that  this can seriously impact the enjoyability of a golf course.

Paul OConnor

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 02:24:54 PM »
.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 08:28:17 AM by Paul OConnor »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 03:21:10 PM »
David,

Having to go around wetlands, instead of simply bulldozing them from existence (the 'luxury' the ODG's had), is one of the biggest 'banes' of modern golf, IMO.  It is absolutely not a new phenomenon and certainly not isolated to Dormie Club.  Rare is the modern course (that I recall) that doesn't have at least one instance where walking around some kind of wetland/sizable creek/crevasse, etc. that can't be touched/constructed in....it's just a part of modern golf, for the most part.  But how is this different than walking around ponds (2 par 3's on your home course) or ravines or ocean inlets (Cypress Point #15 & 16, Pebble #8) that have existed for eons?

I've played Dormie 3 times, walked all 3 (carried 36 one day), and I certainly noticed it, but I know it's just a part of modern golf.

Bruce Wellmon,

I can't remember if it was 15 or 7 that you're able to walk through the wetland instead of around it....there's a marked path.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2011, 04:30:31 PM »
David, You're to be commended for speaking your opinion with a justification.

From reading your analysis, I couldn't help but think it sounded more like a cartball course. Is that an accurate assessment of the type of walking you experienced? Or, was it the only way to get a golf course on that property? (A lot of forced carries)

I sure hope Terry L. is wrong about what I think he means by minimalism courses. There's enough diversity of terrain in the world, to keep the art from becoming repetitive. It's up to the artist to extract the best possible course, from the ground given.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 04:58:54 PM »
Adam,

As the course now exists, it can be either a walk or cartball course. The walk is perhaps the most rigorous I can remember for a C&C walking course. Some of it is due to the hilly nature of the property, and some because of the walkabouts. I was hardly beat up afterwards, but I don't think I'd want to be walking 36 when it was very warm. I routinely carry my clubs and walk a course that has far more extreme hills, so it's not as if I'm not in shape to handle Dormie. I wasn't calling out the issue as a complaint about the rigor of the walk; it was about the loss of what I believe to be a crucial golfing element.

I wouldn't mind having one or two holes that require a circuitous route around a wetland. Dormie had a bunch, so many that I felt disconnected from many of the holes. When you can walk directly from tee to fairway to green, you can start planning your next shot once you leave the last one. It doesn't even have to be a conscious process, but as you walk you start picking up cues that you will use on your next shot. You lose that when you play cartball, which is why so many of us believe that there is something missing when you don't walk. That same thing was lost at Dormie while walking. Sure it may have been a delightful, scenic walk. But something was missing for me about the golfing experience.

Cory Lewis

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 07:24:00 PM »
I can't remember if it was 15 or 7 that you're able to walk through the wetland instead of around it....there's a marked path.

There is a walking path on 15.  It's actually quite fun, there are some stone steps over a little wetland area.  I don't find Dormie a hard walk at all and I've carried two bags for 36 holes there before.  Although I will admit the walk up 17 was a little rough the second time around!  I caddied for some guys from NY a few weeks ago who walked #4 earlier in the day and were planning on taking carts at Dormie because somebody had told them Dormie was a difficult walk.  They changed their minds when they got to Dormie and decided to walk.  They told me they were verry happy they decided to walk and it wasn't bad at all.
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Matt_Ward

Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2011, 08:14:12 PM »
Please help me stop laughing -- TDC is NOT a cartball course. Walking can be done quite easily -- so long as a person doesn't have a major medical issue it's quite within the boundaries of most people. There are plenty of pathways for those who walk to take and I'll say this again -- try walking Bethpage Black and if anyone thinks TDC is a tougher walk than they frankly don't know what it is they are talking about with all due respect.

There are a number of holes at TDC that play uphill and when you have such holes the walk can be a bit more than many might imagine. The "effective" playing yardage for the course also has to be adjusted -- one can tack on no less than 200-300 yards more because of this dimension.

Another thing - the erroneous statement made that TDC has plenty of "a lot of forced carries" stems from a person's ignorance because it's more a visual element than a daunting difficulty. The sole one that really can be called a tough one is the tee shot at #5.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 11:26:27 PM »
David. I completely got your issue with the cohesive nature from your initial post. Its little things like that which make the big ones work. I get it, its about a feeling and I couldn't agree more about the clues one is able to pick up as they walk to their ball. On a circuitous route this aspect is diminished. That's all you're saying. You're not dissing the course in the least only pointing out one aspect that detracted from its greatness. Apparently your opinion is humorous.  
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 08:08:53 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David_Madison

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2011, 11:34:05 PM »
Matt,

Please read what I wrote. My comments have nothing to do with the difficulty of the walk. Sure it's a bit tougher than some other places, but nothing extreme or unreasonable. My issue is what I have described as the disjointed nature of the holes because of one's inability to go directly from tee to fairway to green on way too many holes, and that throws off the pacing and continuity as one plays and goes from shot to shot. The terrain is plenty pretty, although living here in North Carolina it's nothing all that unusual for the region.

Show me where I or anyone else here said it was a cartball course. What I did say was that if you played using a cart, my issue with the routing would likely be rendered moot. I have simply expressed my opinion on a matter and provided some reasonable support, and then simply asked if anyone else experienced the same thing while playing. To laugh at my opinion of my experience, or to mischaracterize what I am saying here doesn't add anything to the discussion.

David_Madison

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2011, 11:38:01 PM »
Cory - Maybe our caddy took us away from some of the available trails that would have made the walks more direct. I know for sure that we went all the around on #15, and that probably was a big miss.

Adam - Thank you

brad_miller

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2011, 07:29:06 AM »
How about the question nobody seems to want to ask. Who will control Dormie in the future, and what business model will they use?  Best to Paul who has moved on. I found the course to be real good, not great, it looks better in pictures which soften the hills. The land forms which make it so interesting for its location are both positive and negative.  Agree with the disjointed nature of the walk. Lots of fun ways to play into and around the greens.

Craig Disher

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2011, 08:15:31 AM »
David,
It sounds to me like your caddie missed a few of the shortcuts. The only holes that force a walk away from the direct line to the fairway are 5 - gotta get around the lake somehow - and 17. As you saw, the course is laced with wetlands but except for 17 there's either a fairly direct route over a bridge or a walking path. I think the only awkward part of the routing is the 6-7 transition. It allows for a good short loop (1-6, 14-18) but compared to the rest of the green-tee transitions it's an outlier.

As for the hills, well, the site is hilly but I don't think it's a severe walk. Granted, it's not #2 but I'm well past my prime and when I walk and carry 36, I don't feel any more tired than I would after playing Pine Needles or Southern Pines.

Bart Bradley

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2011, 09:13:08 AM »
David:

I think it is things like this that made Jeff Dawson post on this site several times that Dormie is not quite finished.  I think the direct walking paths do exist, but not in a completed form.

On my visits I did not experience the long walk-arounds....just walked through slog directly toward the fairway following my caddie.  Is it possible that you were there right after a lot of rain and that your caddie just didn't want to take you through the mud?

Bart 


Jeff Dawson

Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2011, 09:57:49 AM »
David:

I think it is things like this that made Jeff Dawson post on this site several times that Dormie is not quite finished.  I think the direct walking paths do exist, but not in a completed form.

On my visits I did not experience the long walk-arounds....just walked through slog directly toward the fairway following my caddie.  Is it possible that you were there right after a lot of rain and that your caddie just didn't want to take you through the mud?

Bart  





I would say it's quite finished  ;)

Adam Clayman

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Re: Dormie Club - a dissenting opinion
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2011, 11:21:07 AM »
Bart, Welcomed comments. They could explain a lot of why David felt the way he did. Sounds like a return visit is needed, after a dry spell.

 I had never put it into context the way David has, and can now recall many a course where this "detraction" is not only designed in, but also, can be the result of the habits of the frequent player at that course. i.e., one day at Apache Stronghold, since few walkers played there, a direct route thru the desert was too dangerous to walk since there were no beaten down paths and rattlesnakes everywhere. Paa-ko Ridge is also a place where this disjointedness occurs, on a bit too many holes, but is designed-in.

Perhaps it's a modern day necessary evil, on dramatic terrain where the desire is 7000+ yards? The cost to mitigate would be prohibitive, without a better, more subtle site.

The opposite is evident on older courses built in the mountains. They were built on the plateaus and meadows and not on the sides of mountains. The El conquistador in Cortez, Co. exudes and exemplifies this with it's unique Maxwell (Press) design, where there's 9 holes built with 1950's equipment, techniques, and philosophy. And nine built in 1981 with different equipment and techniques which, imo, changed the philosophies. Save for most of the new nine's routing. (housing may have been responsible)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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