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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Funny Jay - I did a little evening research.  In July of 2009 you indicated on this site that you only played Medinah in 1988.  Now you say you played it twice.

When was the second time?  Or was that "second play" just a myth?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks guys for watching my back on this one.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Funny Jay - I did a little evening research.  In July of 2009 you indicated on this site that you only played Medinah in 1988.  Now you say you played it twice.

When was the second time?  Or was that "second play" just a myth?

Maybe I got to play it recently and you didn't hear about it!:)

Maybe it's none of your business hearing about what I play unless I say:)

Pass the chump repellant guys...Potts is crying like Nancy Kerrigan that everyone knows his course sucks.

Ryan...this is for both you and Pat...if one of your friends started this thread, you'd fall all over yourself sticking up for them.  You know it and so does everyone else, so go sell crazy over at Bomb Squad Golf...it's more your speed.

David, thanks for the quote, but that might be a bit strong for me to use:):)  Heck, I have one other great quote - not as severe as yours, but equally biting, and funny, but like  yours better judgment requires I be fair and even handed ...but thanks for the support.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:03:05 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
I know for a fact that you didn't...unless you played under a psudonymn.

As for my retort to your name calling I'll just let your pathetic work and last post speak for themselves.  You've been exposed.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:25:37 PM by Ryan Potts »

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Funny Jay - I did a little evening research.  In July of 2009 you indicated on this site that you only played Medinah in 1988.  Now you say you played it twice.

When was the second time?  Or was that "second play" just a myth?

Maybe I got to play it recently and you didn't hear about it!:)

Maybe it's none of your business hearing about what I play unless I say:)

Pass the chump repellant guys...Potts is crying like Nancy Kerrigan that everyone knows his course sucks...

Deleted post - will continue to be the better person.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:25:06 PM by Ryan Potts »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay,
I have no dog in the argument going on within this thread but I don't think Mike Davis understands golf course architecture better than Rees Jones.  While one may not like his style or his strategies just the mere time he has spent designing golf courses would make him understand the business more than Mike Davis.  Now if there is sonething I don't know about Mike Daivs and he actually does have that experience then perhaps we will see him hanging out a shingle and putting a few in the ground.  I think often people think they understand golf course architecture just because they don't really understand golf course architecture.....all you have to do is ask a few golf pros ro club committees....cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sam Morrow

No Mike Davis doesn't understand architecture better than Rees Jones, he just has a different take on it. Rees is a lighting rod on this site, if you put his name on Sand Hills people would say that it's the worst, contrived POS ever done. If you took his Open Dr. work and put the names Coore and Crenshaw on it people would say it's the greatest thing since the Reformation.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jay  - I thought you would have learned your lesson a couple of years ago about how these sniping battles get out of control. Are you going down that road again?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
No Mike Davis doesn't understand architecture better than Rees Jones, he just has a different take on it. Rees is a lighting rod on this site, if you put his name on Sand Hills people would say that it's the worst, contrived POS ever done. If you took his Open Dr. work and put the names Coore and Crenshaw on it people would say it's the greatest thing since the Reformation.

While your point might be a bit exaggerrated,  I think you have a point. I do think that many here look only for the bad/good depending on who the architect is.

Sam Morrow

No Mike Davis doesn't understand architecture better than Rees Jones, he just has a different take on it. Rees is a lighting rod on this site, if you put his name on Sand Hills people would say that it's the worst, contrived POS ever done. If you took his Open Dr. work and put the names Coore and Crenshaw on it people would say it's the greatest thing since the Reformation.

While your point might be a bit exaggerrated,  I think you have a point. I do think that many here look only for the bad/good depending on who the architect is.

I think there is no doubt, people see a name and make up their mind already. That seems pretty closed minded to me.

Jeff_Brauer

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Wow, that Rees is a radical, in thinking a three shot hole should be a three shot hole!  What's next, will he think Par is a good score, and birdie a treat, rather than just duming down par for a birdie fest?

Seriously, Tour Players like definition.  Actually, most golfers like definition.  So if Rees gives them definition, he is giving the customer what they like, and that is never a bad business model.

Now, other gca's have reacted to that perhaps over use of a single premise, and that is all well and good, too.  It has happened a lot in history and will continue to happen.

As for Rees not redoing Pinehurst, it may or may not be a long term Open Doctor trend, but I suspect it is a trend to move away from Rees, if for no other reason people get tired and want something new to talk about.  Time will tell if CC become the new Open Doctors, or if the domiance of one gca for such a task will ever be repeated. I doubt the dominance of any one gca for major tournament venues will continue.  Just too many good ones to choose from.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
No Mike Davis doesn't understand architecture better than Rees Jones, he just has a different take on it. Rees is a lighting rod on this site, if you put his name on Sand Hills people would say that it's the worst, contrived POS ever done. If you took his Open Dr. work and put the names Coore and Crenshaw on it people would say it's the greatest thing since the Reformation.

While your point might be a bit exaggerrated,  I think you have a point. I do think that many here look only for the bad/good depending on who the architect is.

I think there is no doubt, people see a name and make up their mind already. That seems pretty closed minded to me.

For sure. Some of it is deserved based upon the body of work, but it is not as black and white as many make it to be, that is all.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
How many contibutors to this forum are members of a course designed or renovated by Rees Jones?

I can confirm he did a very good job indeed on our Dunes Course. An architect, well beloved by GCA'ers, renovated a hole on the Shore Course that was less than satisfactory and he came back to rectify his work. Should we condemn the latter and dismiss his excellent work done elsewhere? I think not.

Did MacKenzie err at times? If someone can bring up a photograph of the green surroundings at the thirteenth hole at Cypress Point and look at the bunkering to the left rear, wouldn't many complain of 'eye candy?'

Bob

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
No Mike Davis doesn't understand architecture better than Rees Jones, he just has a different take on it. Rees is a lighting rod on this site, if you put his name on Sand Hills people would say that it's the worst, contrived POS ever done. If you took his Open Dr. work and put the names Coore and Crenshaw on it people would say it's the greatest thing since the Reformation.

Sam, is that really true though...Bob Jones used to get little love here, but then he opened Chambers Bay, and the reaction was wonderful.  And Jones said that when the owners came to him and said just have fun and if we get a US Open, then great, and if not no biggie, and left him to his own devices, he built a great course and Open venue.  Too often, when people told him build a really hard course in order to draw an Open, they didn't get it...

I'd like to think that if Rees  built a truly great course in the future that we all would praise it!  I think we're a fair and intelligent enough group to see past the architect's name and assess the work.  We did it with Chambers Bay.  We also call a spade a spade and admit when say Nicklaus or other designers that aren't stars here do well and build a good course. Some of you, for example, are members at the Ritz Carleton.  We also admit when architects we like don't quite reach the heights we hoped.  For example, some here were only luke-warm on Bandon Trails.  Usually we can't wait to praise C&C...but once the rest of us look past the noise of the inflated egos who try to dominate the conversation by sheer force of will, the rest of us are pretty observant and honest, yet not unfair.

I will agree with you Sam that some architects do get a little better treatment than others - not so much a "free pass," but a lot more forgiveness.

Now last night I thought carefully about the question I posed.   I framed it as "does Davis understand architectural principles better..."  Perhaps I might have specified "strategic architectural principle" and that might have honed the debate more accurately.  So some of you may be right - the way I worded the question could still be interpreted as who's the better architect - well that's obviously Rees because he has built so many courses and Davis hasn't built any original designs, but tournament set-up is directly related to architecture and the architecture and set-up are intrinsically entwined at that point.  Whatever you do to set up the course, you are doing some thing affect the way the player will attack the course, bringing some features into play one day, and others the next.

Now think about this - at a course with strategic options, the set-up can be more varied - and therefore interesting - and at a course with less strategy the options dwindle.    In fact, you sometimes have to make radical changes to the set-up to make a bland course more interesting - like moving tees way up on par-4s or 5s to make them half-par holes.

Now look - at some courses, Rees gets a pretty free hand, more so if his dad designed the course.  Jeff B. you make a good observation in your post, but I also stand by my belief that Rees's par-5s would be better if he gave us more half-par holes that tempt the player into going for it or not, rather than dictating that we play three center-line shots.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:32:30 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
No Mike Davis doesn't understand architecture better than Rees Jones, he just has a different take on it. Rees is a lighting rod on this site, if you put his name on Sand Hills people would say that it's the worst, contrived POS ever done. If you took his Open Dr. work and put the names Coore and Crenshaw on it people would say it's the greatest thing since the Reformation.

Please provide some sort of evidence to illustrate your point. This gets thrown out a lot, but I have yet to ever see it substantiated. One concrete example will suffice - proposed hypotheticals will not.

Thanks in advance.

I can cite numerous examples of the exact opposite - praise for Rees and criticism of C&C - should you require it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:32:49 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
George,

I can't cite any posts off the top of my head, but I can remember clear instances playing with GCAers in person. As I mentioned above, I think Sam's post might be a bit of an exaggeration, but IMO there is at least partial truth to it.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
George,

I can't cite any posts off the top of my head, but I can remember clear instances playing with GCAers in person. As I mentioned above, I think Sam's post might be a bit of an exaggeration, but IMO there is at least partial truth to it.

Please cite concrete evidence. One example on here will suffice- hearsay conversations with friends/acquiantances will not. :)

There have been many instances to support the exact opposite, including a recent thread criticising C&C for the Dormie Club routing, another poster who thought Sand Hills was overrated (maybe 6-12 months ago, can't remember the invididual, was a pretty good - if contentious - thread), and there has been quite a bit of praise for Olde Kinderhook - a Rees course - as well as praise for Rees' work at Bethpage (though it didn't live up the standards of some).

Call me crazy - John K does almost every day, it's easy to do, I haven't done anything more than joust with him, I'm sure he'd tell you I'm a big pussycat - but I am calling bull shit on this weak proposition.

BS!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve Goodwin

For reasons many have mentioned, it's hard to think of Davis as an architect.  Here's another reason:  he's not trying to design golf courses but to figure out how to make top players use their full range of shots/skills.  A highly specialized task, and the result is not likely to produce design that has much to do with the rest of us merely mortal golfers.

I say this having just been to Merion (first time) where they are already making some changes for the 2013.  While I didn't study the pending changes at length (many aren't yet begun), one of the guiding ideas seemed to be to create angles -- tee boxes are being added not just for length but to provide angled shots into fairways, and some fairways are being relocated for the same reason.   Players aren't going to be asked to hit the ball right down the middle, with rough and bunkers on either side.  They're going to have to make decisions about which bunkers they can carry, what line to take from the tee and what club to use.  The moving of the fairways, even though it won't be far, will also bring OB much more into play.

Some of the changes CC have made to Pinehurst #2 will have the same effect, I believe, even though the angles might not be as pronounced.   In firm and fast Open conditions, the fairways are going to be like the greens -- that is, players are going to have to hit the right shots to stay on them and keep the ball from running into the sandy areas.

Bottom line: I think Davis is focussing on making the guys playing the Open hit precise, strategic tee shots.  He couldn't do it just with set up, so he's looking for ways to to accomplish this with design changes (at Merion I got the impression that he was the driving force behind the proposed changes).   Good luck to him.   It might not have been necessary if they'd kept the ball from going so far, but that's another story . . .


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
If someone can point me toward one of Rees' designs that is fun, strategic and playable for the average 15 handicap I'd love to check it out.  I have yet to see either an original design or remodeling of his that blew me away...I've played his original designs at Pinehurst #7, Fiddler's Elbow and Rio Secco as well as a number of his Open Doctored courses, the best being Bethpage Black and the worst being Cog Hill #4, although he may have simply been executing what the owner wanted in that instance.  The work at the the Dunes course certainly sounds intriguing.  As for Mike Davis, I can't say but I certainly like the direction he's moving with his Open setups and can't wait to see what transpires at Pinehurst (anecdotally a buddy of mine played #2 last week and was underwhelmed with the condition of the course, maybe it won't really be up to snuff till next season)...  
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 02:17:26 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
If someone can point me toward one of Rees' designs that is fun, strategic and playable for the average 15 handicap I'd love to check it out.  I have yet to see either an original design or remodeling of his that blew me away...I've played his original designs at Pinehurst #7, Fiddler's Elbow and Rio Secco as well as a number of his Open Doctored courses, the best being Bethpage Black and the worst being Cog Hill #4, although he may have simply been executing what the owner wanted in that instance.  The work at the the Dunes course certainly sounds intriguing.  As for Mike Davis, I can't say but I certainly like the direction he's moving with his Open setups and can't wait to see what transpires at Pinehurst (anecdotally a buddy of mine played #2 last week and was underwhelmed with the condition of the course, maybe it won't really be up to snuff till next season)...  

Jud:

If you're ever in the area check out Briars Creek near Kiawah Island. A very good low country course that is fun to play. When it opened +\- 2004 it was top 100 in country.
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Seriously, Tour Players like definition.  Actually, most golfers like definition.  So if Rees gives them definition, he is giving the customer what they like, and that is never a bad business model.



Jeff:

As I recall, the most vocal criticism of some of Rees' recent work has come from Tour players, and not from this site.  So I'm not sure about your premise above, even though the title of this thread is certainly a bit of hyperbole.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Seriously, Tour Players like definition.  Actually, most golfers like definition.  So if Rees gives them definition, he is giving the customer what they like, and that is never a bad business model.



Jeff:

As I recall, the most vocal criticism of some of Rees' recent work has come from Tour players, and not from this site.  So I'm not sure about your premise above, even though the title of this thread is certainly a bit of hyperbole.

True that.  One need only consider the scathing remarks after the BMW Championship at Cog Hill #4 last year.  Withering, unrelenting criticism.  Over the top to a degree, but there were precious few defenders opening their mouths.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff B. I'll echo TD's comments and note that - just like in Spirit of St. Andrews, when Mackenzie talked about teaming up with Max Behr to debunk the misconceptions held by the pros of the time about what made a good golf hole - erasing the character-filled  fairway undulations in the name of flat lies or erasing a blind shot to "frame the shot" as he has at Congressional (see thread below for all changes since 1989) dumbs down the game and is dictatorial rather than filled with options.  Why is a hole like 18 at Sawgrass terrific?  Because the curve of the hazard and the clean backdrop were intended by Dye to promote the doctrine of deception...to make you think carefully and pick the right line...not just step up and slam it as hard as you can down the middle, or give you points of reference to make it an easy choice for you.

Ran recently wrote that we are in the second golden age of Golf Course Architecture...and I agree with him.  But there's no question Rees Jones is not the architect who led us here.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Andy Troeger

George,
Of course no one's going to prove what you're asking them to prove. Its a hypothetical situation and one that hasn't happened to my knowledge. The only way you'd have a chance of finding out is by some grand psychological/sociological experiment that would involve deception and probably worse!

I tend to believe that some architects get the benefit of the doubt, especially from certain posters. Heck, I tend to believe that I probably do it--fair or not. If you choose not to believe, then that's well within your rights.

And there are quite a few posts on that Dormie thread explaining why the original poster was wrong  ;)   And in fairness, quite a few appreciative of his comments! I found it thought provoking, not having been to Dormie.

All,
I recently had a GCA'er tell me that Rees' new Victory Ranch course outside Park City might be the best in Utah. I'd like to see that one. 3 Creek Ranch in Jackson, WY is good but not great. The views of the surrounding mountains are really wonderful, but the property itself was very flat and by my guess didn't have a lot of great features to start with.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
My Dad told me as a kid - "Beware of anyone who believes in anything too much.  Such belief clouds objectivity."

I think this thread is a perfect example of the dangers.  When you're a zealot, you lose your perspective.

There is now doubt that the fanaticism of some permeates this site and sometimes destroys its objective value for others - but any objective idiot can pin these crazies immediately.

There is no chance that Mike Davis has a greater understanding of great golf architecture than anyone who designs golf courses for a living.  Mike Davis is pretty good at using whatever architecture is given to him, and transforming it into a test for the best players in the world for one week.  And, despite the armchair journalists cries to the contrary, credit must be given to those that give him the canvas upon which to work because without said canvas, we're left with very little.

And Tom, are we really now putting tremendous credence into the whims, whispers and whimpers of the PGA Tour professional after playing sub-par golf?  If we are, I will privately share with you comments I've heard from these pros about Augusta National, Cypress Point, Pine Valley and Riviera....all which should be and were, largely dismissed.


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