[Jim_Bick]

Is perhaps another way to look at it is that the driveable par four of modern courses is the modern analog of the 230 plus par three of classic courses? In classic designs (with non-current equipment) the small size and/or significant contour of the green provided some defense against and interest for the player who laid up, either by choice or otherwise, while rewarding the daring, successful long shot.

Since in today's world, many if not most players feel that a daring successful long shot should be rewarded with a two putt birdie, it doesn't surprise me that course developers and therefore architects have moved away from hole designs that don't provide that.

Not advocating, just trying to think the question through.

Jim

[George Pazin]

As long as you're gonna make me nauseous...

Wolf Creek has a pretty interesting long par 3 - I think it's #7 or 8. Long tee shot down to a green that looks like a speck. I have a pretty cool pic of it, but my website is down & it will be awhile before I can post it.

Interesting point, Jim Bick. Almost seems like you're saying in the past golfers welcomed the challenge of a long par 3, while now golfers shy away from this, preferring the birdie opportunity of a short par 4. Maybe I'm just reading too much into this.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
 I'm suprised you minded the 260 tee at Barona. My brother (play the tips while you're young, cause you ain't going to do it when you're retired) wanted to play the back tees and I don't usually like to be that far back, but figured we could adjust if it was too much. After two holes and seeing how fast and firm the course plays it wasn't bad at all. Then when we got to #3 I thought 260 yds is ridiculous, but when I figured I only needed to carry it 200-210 it wasn't bad at all. I like the hole because even if you come up short, the up and down isnt bad. Todd put a lot of variety into those par 3's which I appreciated, because I get bored hitting  4 or 5 iron into four 190 yd par 3's just so a course could crack the 7,000 yd barrier. I liked the hole because it initially psychs you out, but then when I took into account the conditions and thought about it as I said not so bad. Hit driver (tried to take something off and of course pured it to the back edge of the green)  because my swing was suspect that day and I wasn't on speaking terms with my 1 iron. Glad you liked the course. Rustic Canyon next!

[Matt_Ward]

George:

You're memory is razor sharp sir.

The 8th at Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) is truly a hole that will age any player who has a case of nerves. Played the from the tips the hole is 248 yards and the tee shot must be straighter than Robin Hood ever shot an arrow.

The only miss area is short and even then you must be careful. The hole sits below in a canyon and water and rock awaits the slightest pull / push. Watching your tee shot fly high above the target will definitely bring some Rolaids moments.

I hope Scott can weigh in with his thoughts because only a handful of posters have mentioned Wolf Creek in past threads.

P.S. You can also the 3rd which is 227 yards and is uphill to boot!

[Jim_Bick]

George,

I do think that whatever was called par had to be far less relevant to players and therefore had less influence on design than today. All of the courses we are talking about were designed in an era of match play and before handicaps (literally). I was just reading "Golf Clubs of the MGA" and it said that in the Metropolitan (NY) Golf Association as late as 1927 only better players had them. With the limit 8, only 608 were in force. In that environment, where you're playing against your fellow members and the stroke score is irrelevant, whether it's a long three or a short four is meaningless.

Jim

[Jim_Bick]

George,

I do think that whatever was called par had to be far less relevant to players and therefore had less influence on design than today. All of the courses we are talking about were designed in an era of match play and before handicaps (literally). I was just reading "Golf Clubs of the MGA" and it said that in the Metropolitan (NY) Golf Association as late as 1927 only better players had them. With the limit 8, only 608 were in force. In that environment, where you're playing against your fellow members and the stroke score is irrelevant, whether it's a long three or a short four is meaningless.

Jim

[Jim_Bick]

Sorry for the inadvertent resend. I guess the back button and refresh are a dangerous combination.

[George Pazin]

Matt -

I didn't even make it up to the 248 tee - the way backs were closed (rumored to be permanently so) when I was there. I think the tee I was on was maybe 210-220 & a bit downhill. Still, that looks like one small target.

Similarly, I played the 3d at maybe 190 (sorry, can't find my yardage book & my memory is still fuzzy from the vertigo). It's definitely quite deceptive, too - I looked at it, told my friends there was no way that was 190, pulled my trusty 7 iron & pured it about 20 yards short. The greensite is pretty cool - a real skyline effect set on a hilltop. Also, I recall some bunkers well short of the green that I think contributed to the deception.

Now that I think back & don't feel like vomitting , the par 3s at Wolf Creek provided some real variety. #3 & #7 we've already mentioned, #11 was a long dropshot variety (you must've loved that) & #15(?pretty sure) was set into a hillside, the shortest of the bunch to my recollection.

Maybe that course wasn't so bad after all...

Jim -

Don't worry about the multiple posting - you don't think we all acquired these posting numbers legitimately, do you?

[THuckaby2]

Ed - my only real problem with the 260 tee on #3 at Barona is that it exceeds what always has been the top limit for a par3 by USGA standards, and while that is ok some times, it seems to be happening too much lately on par 4's and thus to me, extending this trend to par3's sets a bad precedent.  Yes, the hole plays much shorter than 260, as I've said several times on this thread... This is a very strange, difficult to explain esoteric point which I've failed miserably trying to get across!  But let's just say if he moves it up to 249, I have no problem.

The fact the tee was closed and the shop guys told me it nearly always is raised my suspicions also.

But the best thing here is really to say:  "the course is fantastic - never mind!"

TH

[Tim_Jackson]

There is a 237 yard par 3 at the newly opened Shady Canyon GC in Irvine, CA.  The hole plays about 25 feet downhill with the green perched on a bench above a creek.  On a direct line with the middle of the green the carry is about 215 from the tips.  It is helacious on a breezy day.

[John Foley]

Gotta second a few I saw posted before that are great par three's,

#6 Dye Course @ PGA West  255yrds
#9  Arcadia Bluffs 240 yrds

Anyone know how long #17 at Ocean @ Kiawah plays? If remember, they have a  230+ tee out towards the ocean that has got to be be pure hell.

A few more points, I love the multiple tee's. Spread'em wide & deep. Just think of the variety you get. The hole needs to be design well (#9 at Kinglsey is the perfect example of one that works and #7 I think?? @ Tobacco Road is one that doesn't) for the plan to work. 7 tee's in one straight line varying from 100-220 yards is kind of dumb, but you get some width, play the angles w/ the bunkering and surronds and the options are amazing. The par three from Purgatory looks like a great hole and a lot of fun to play.

Variety is the EVERYTHING w/ the par 3's. I play get to play a private Hurdzan design often (Cobblestone Creek-Victor, NY) and I swear I hit 6 iron on all 4 par three's (170-200 yrds up/downhill w/ & into the wind) 9 out of 10 times. A fine course but the repetative nature of the par three's really annoy me.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

No. 17 at The Ocean Course has a tee box that measures 221 from the center.  It's probably 235 from the back of that tee box...

[Chris Hervochon]

I am glad somebody finally mentioned Kiawah, because I was just getting ready to.  I was there last February and walked the back nine before I played it.  Have any of you actually ever stood on that tee?  It's ludacris.  That huge green looks like a pea, and you have no angle from there.  God only knows what would happen if anybody had to play from there with the common north wind in the cold of winter.  BRUTAL!

[ed_getka]

Tom H.,
 'Nuff said.

[Stan Dodd]

#16 at Stevinson Ranch-240 in to the wind!!

[wsmorrison]

Absolutely, the Philly area is blessed with outstanding par 3s (and golf courses).  Philly CC 15th is uphill and has only been aced twice in more than 70 years!  Rolling Green (I am a member) #10 is also uphill though not as severe as Philly #15.  But 10 at RGGC follows the severe uphill 445 yard #8 and the 614 yard uphill #9 hole, that's a great back-to-back-to-back challenge!

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

wsmorrison,

I too live in the Philadelphia area and couldn't agree more that it is blessed with a number of great par 3's (and courses).

How about a more recent version from my home course... #7 at Glen Mills (230 from the tips, uphill).  Try playing it with a blind back left pin placement.  For those who haven't seen the green, it has 5 tiers...  and if you push it right, 5 would be a good number.

Any chance I could get you out here for a round WSMorrison?

[wsmorrison]

Geoffrey,
I've played Glen Mills a few times.  As you know, Rolling Green had bacterial wilt and fungus problems (seemingly corrected by the outstanding work of Warren Savini) and we had to play elsewhere.  Many GAP courses helped out offering tee times.  Got the chance to play some great places and some nice daily fee courses I wouldn't normally play.  Glen Mills is a lot of fun and an interesting design.  I like #7 and have had a well-earned birdie (have to land it near the pin), a super-long put the first time I played it over 3 rises, and even made par from below the bunkers right.  Ten is a fun par 3 and I still haven't figured out the smart way to play 11 (driver (worked out great twice, trouble twice) or 4 iron)  I'll play GM anytime we can get it together.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

WSMorrison,

Ah yes, #11.  Though not connected to this thread, that hole should be included in any discussion on great modern short par 4's.  I have played there probably 60 times and I just started to figure out how to play it.  I hit an iron (usually a 5) to the 150 marker, which is the widest part of the fairway.  The bends in the creek that pinch in on the left make it a great strategic hole.  Then I usually have a 9/PW into that green.  4 is a great number there.  Proof you don't have to be 480 yds to be a great par 4.

FYI - The first time I played it I hit driver and landed it in the neck of the fairway (15 yds wide, maybe) 300 yds. out.  After I saw how little room there was, I never could hit driver again.  Ignorance is bliss.

Drop me an email and we'll set up some time this summer for a round.

[wsmorrison]

Geoffrey,
I've played Glen Mills a few times.  As you know, Rolling Green had bacterial wilt and fungus problems (seemingly corrected by the outstanding work of Warren Savini) and we had to play elsewhere.  Many GAP courses helped out offering tee times.  Got the chance to play some great places and some nice daily fee courses I wouldn't normally play.  Glen Mills is a lot of fun and an interesting design.  I like #7 and have had a well-earned birdie (have to land it near the pin), a super-long put the first time I played it over 3 rises, and even made par from below the bunkers right.  Ten is a fun par 3 and I still haven't figured out the smart way to play 11 (driver (worked out great twice, trouble twice) or 4 iron)  I'll play GM anytime we can get it together.

[Tim_Jackson]

Shivas and Patrick:

The bent grass approach and the bunkering form the anchor on that particular par 3.  A small pot bunker forms the 'eye' of the anchor.  I can not quite remember, but I remember it being in the 180 to 200 yard range.

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