[Keith OHalloran]

On another thread, it was noted that Bandon Dunes does not use carts because their use would negatively effect the course and dumb it down. Is this really true? I know that both Shinnecock and Sand Hills have carts.  I am sure that the  amount of rounds at Bandon is an issue as compared to those private clubs, but what about Pebble  Beach, Kiawah or Pinehurst? They all offer carts. Have they been dumbed down? If so, how?

[Brent Hutto]

Dumb it down? Not sure I can parse that phrase in this context.

Sounds like a thing I was told at a club I (briefly) belonged to years ago. Owners decided no walking as they said golfers not in carts looked like cheapskates and they wanted to be an upscale course. Not sure how that could work the other way 'round, though.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Keith,

I can tell you that in designing cart only courses, there has to be some consideration to hazard placement relative to carts.  On high play courses, its best to have fw and even green side bunkers either on the side without the cart path, or minimal and with big gaps on the side with the cart path. 

So, in that sense, you could say that the design is compromised somewhat, taking some options that might be strategically "perfect" off the table in favor of good circulation and reduced worn spots from concentrated cart traffic.  Of course, we can still design anything we want to, and alert the owner that he will be re-sodding every year, but most don't have the stomach for that, and the ones who do usually call a few years later asking us to modify the design.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Carts=Stupid or injured or too old to walk.

Nuf said.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I should not be so callous.

Carts are also for players who grew up playing out of carts. I did not but I don't hold any malice for those that like a cart.

I just think they are missing what I find is a more intimate experience with the golf course.

[David_Elvins]

Keith,

I think that cart paths reduce the playing area of the course, espcially around greens.  

I think pebble gets away with it because the way the property is routed with  essentially a strip of golf course a few hundred yeards wide, it looks reasonable to have playable area on both sides of the cart path.  

On most courses though, the cart path delineates the line between 'in play' and 'out of play'.  If you want your cart path to be close to the fairway and green then out pof play areas come close to the fairway and green.

Not having full cart paths improves things but then it comes down to traffic and turf conditions.  Even then, the transition between holes can be really stuffed up by carts.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

carts and cart paths are very different things
Sand Hills and Shinnecock do not have cart paths
There is at least one firm that strove to hide the paths at a higher priority than other elements

[David Kelly]

We'll there's the practical consideration that Bandon's courses are grassed with fescue which wouldn't thrive or even survive with a ton of cart traffic.

[Roger Wolfe]

We'll there's the practical consideration that Bandon's courses are grassed with fescue which wouldn't thrive or even survive with a ton of cart traffic.

You are on the money David.  I have never had the honor of playing Bandon but I know The Straights course at Bandon is all fescue.  If their fescue behaves like our's you would have a barren wasteland in a short period of time.  The only other option would be to build cart paths with curbs and restrict all traffic off the fairways.  As a "stupid, injured and infirmed" person I would rather walk or not play than deal with "carts on the path."

[Garland Bayley]

Would the 16th at Pac Dunes be as good a hole if there were cart paths providing access? How about the 7th? Are you going to ruin the playing surface at these holes by routing cart paths through them or turning them to bare earth by cart traffic? Can't you people who play a lot of golf at very good courses come up with your own examples. E.g., the 10th at Chambers Bay. How about the 3rd at Astoria Country Club where everyone who sees pictures comments on how the cart path ruins the hole. When Tom Doak saw the pictures of Astoria Country Club with the cart paths there, he crossed it off his must see list.

[Bob_Huntley]

Malcom,

"Nuff said." I have never been rude to a poster in my nine years on this site but you sound like an arrogant pupil of our English true believer Mr. Morrow. I want people to learn to play the game and decide for themselves what they want from it. If they get enjoyment from not walking or cannot afford a caddie, let them ride. Their contribution to the finances of the club will keep your dues under control.

How on earth can riding a cart dumb down a golf course? The best pure golfing test in these United States is Pine Valley, when the members have played the big course they go out, in carts, and enjoy the annex. There is no dumbing down there.


Bob

[Sean_A]

I am in the camp that it is usually the cart path which compromises architecture from a playing and aesthetic PoV.  The carts themselves aren't an issue (assuming the turf can handle it) and if cart ballers were more considerate about the course (rather than treat each area of the course as if it were a parking lot and the goal is to get as close to the shop door as possible) then many miles of paths wouldn't be necessary.  That said, carts can be the catalysit for some really awful architecture if like me one prescribes to the notion that how a course hangs together is important.  "Driving" to holes cannot and should not ever be seen as part of ideal architecture. 

Ciao

[David Kelly]

My biggest problem with carts is that it has allowed architects to build courses without walkers foremost in their minds.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

I was not going to respond to this topic hoping to get a good debate going without it always reflecting upon my opinions, but alas I have to respond thanks to your unworthy invitation.

I do not know what it is but I will happily put it down to age and you having a senior moment
when you said “I have never been rude to a poster in my nine years on this site but you sound like an arrogant pupil of our English true believer Mr. Morrow.”

You have been extremely rude to this Member who dares to voice an independent opinion that perhaps differes from yours. That one word comment was I believe (by all means correct me if I am wrong) ‘Asshole’. However not satisfied with your past indiscretion,  you continue your attack upon my person in the form of calling me ‘English’.

I presume that it can only be put down to age getting the better of you or could it have anything to do with forgetting which Nation is currently receiving your loyalty. I am rather fortunate that my loyalty has always been directed to the same country.  Having corrected your errors I feel I have to make a comment regards the carts part in dumbing down the experience of the game.

Before you talk about carts you must look to the game of Golf which by its own nature is a walking game. The biggest problem with the pro cart argument is that you regard it as a form of transport to get from point A to point B, however the Golfers among us know that walking between these point gives the player so much information. One’s gentle ingress thought the Hole allows the walker the opportunity to feel and observe not just the course, but the light throwing shadows upon the surface of the Fairways/Greens allowing one to study the contours as you approach your next shot.  One notices and feels the land as one walks, add to that the opportunity to really notice the light highlighting the minor bumps helps our understand of GCA, natural and the workings of Nature. Walking gives the player more than just understanding the GCA, as well as the Hole he/she is playing in far more details that flying by on a cart.

Of course that is not dumbing down the course for the cart riders, for the simple reason they have no knowledge let alone understand of what they are missing. In their mind they are not wasting energy in walking and can whisk or tack from side to side on a golf course uncaring for the ground , other players and the game of golf itself.

Carts do take away big chunks of the experience one can gain by walking a golf course, but of course that is not dumbing down a golf course  - is it – Of Course it is, Hell you guys are far from stupid, those that ride do so because they do not want to play golf but cart golf, no problem but why not just admit it.

The Game of Golf is a Walking Game, period, ride fine but have the F#@k*7g Balls to be honest with yourselves and say you are lazy, can’t hack the hot weather or whatever it is, so you ride. How dare for your own weakness you attack those of us who believe in the game so push ourselves to keep the heart and spirit of Golf alive.

I have never had any objections to people riding, but I do object to them thinking they are playing the same game as I am when I walk every foot, calculate with my mind and eyes, that’s golf and I have earned the right to call myself a Golfer. You ride so call it carts golf or you use aids call it assisted golf, but NO that will not do, will it Guys,  its seem to smack or weakness or betrayal of being unworthy, so we all run for the large umbrella called golf. Sorry in my opinion, be brave and admit your weakness, no shame in doing so, but lie about it, that is totally despicable in my eyes.

It all boils down to self-respect and the ability to look at oneself in the mirror  -     Do carts really dumb down a golf course – YES of course it does.

Melvyn

[William_G]

Bob

I was not going to respond to this topic hoping to get a good debate going without it always reflecting upon my opinions, but alas I have to respond thanks to your unworthy invitation.

I do not know what it is but I will happily put it down to age and you having a senior moment
when you said “I have never been rude to a poster in my nine years on this site but you sound like an arrogant pupil of our English true believer Mr. Morrow.”

You have been extremely rude to this Member who dares to voice an independent opinion that perhaps differes from yours. That one word comment was I believe (by all means correct me if I am wrong) ‘Asshole’. However not satisfied with your past indiscretion,  you continue your attack upon my person in the form of calling me ‘English’.

I presume that it can only be put down to age getting the better of you or could it have anything to do with forgetting which Nation is currently receiving your loyalty. I am rather fortunate that my loyalty has always been directed to the same country.  Having corrected your errors I feel I have to make a comment regards the carts part in dumbing down the experience of the game.

Before you talk about carts you must look to the game of Golf which by its own nature is a walking game. The biggest problem with the pro cart argument is that you regard it as a form of transport to get from point A to point B, however the Golfers among us know that walking between these point gives the player so much information. One’s gentle ingress thought the Hole allows the walker the opportunity to feel and observe not just the course, but the light throwing shadows upon the surface of the Fairways/Greens allowing one to study the contours as you approach your next shot.  One notices and feels the land as one walks, add to that the opportunity to really notice the light highlighting the minor bumps helps our understand of GCA, natural and the workings of Nature. Walking gives the player more than just understanding the GCA, as well as the Hole he/she is playing in far more details that flying by on a cart.

Of course that is not dumbing down the course for the cart riders, for the simple reason they have no knowledge let alone understand of what they are missing. In their mind they are not wasting energy in walking and can whisk or tack from side to side on a golf course uncaring for the ground , other players and the game of golf itself.

Carts do take away big chunks of the experience one can gain by walking a golf course, but of course that is not dumbing down a golf course  - is it – Of Course it is, Hell you guys are far from stupid, those that ride do so because they do not want to play golf but cart golf, no problem but why not just admit it.

The Game of Golf is a Walking Game, period, ride fine but have the F#@k*7g Balls to be honest with yourselves and say you are lazy, can’t hack the hot weather or whatever it is, so you ride. How dare for your own weakness you attack those of us who believe in the game so push ourselves to keep the heart and spirit of Golf alive.

I have never had any objections to people riding, but I do object to them thinking they are playing the same game as I am when I walk every foot, calculate with my mind and eyes, that’s golf and I have earned the right to call myself a Golfer. You ride so call it carts golf or you use aids call it assisted golf, but NO that will not do, will it Guys,  its seem to smack or weakness or betrayal of being unworthy, so we all run for the large umbrella called golf. Sorry in my opinion, be brave and admit your weakness, no shame in doing so, but lie about it, that is totally despicable in my eyes.

It all boils down to self-respect and the ability to look at oneself in the mirror  -     Do carts really dumb down a golf course – YES of course it does.

Melvyn

+1

[Kalen Braley]

I'm shocked it took Melvyn 13 posts to get here.

But now that he's here, its game over guy.  May as well put your clubs back in your bag and go home...walking mind you... not in a cart!

[SL_Solow]

For what its worth, I think David Kelly has it about right.  I am a walking golfer who rides only when required and then I walk as much as possible.  Nonetheless, I think Sir Robert has it figured out; for those who prefer carts, so long as they do not harm the course or interfere with those of us who are walking, they should be permitted to use them even if the game is less satisfying in the view of others.  But David is correct that the use of carts has allowed architects to design courses in such a way that walking becomes impractical or in some cases well nigh impossible.  It also has helped create the housing development course where the distance between a green and the next tee can be a drive for 3 blocks, then through a parking lot and then on to the next area where homes can be built with "fairway views".  Clearly continuous paths impact playability in an adverse manner.  

Finally, one of the finest gentleman on this site for many years has been Bob Huntley.  I suspect that if he was rude to anyone, they did something to deserve it.

[Bill_McBride]

Finally, one of the finest gentleman on this site for many years has been Bob Huntley.  I suspect that if he was rude to anyone, they did something to deserve it.

Well said. 

Stand back when Melvyn goes into cruise control.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Finally, one of the finest gentleman on this site for many years has been Bob Huntley.  I suspect that if he was rude to anyone, they did something to deserve it.

I know your suspicions to be wrong. He lit into Melvyn with very rude comments under the impression that Melvyn was an arrogant walking golfer that was taking a stand against carts without suffering any infirmary that would necessitate him taking a cart. This was well after Melvyn joined the site and had made it abundantly clear that he had given up golf, because his health did not allow it without the aid of a cart, and that he chose not to use a cart to keep him in the game he loved.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Thank you Gentlemen.

SL
Absolutely, for daring to have an opinion of my own, then no fear in expressing it – Revolutionary for a blog site that encourages freedom of views.  Should that be considered un-American as all my other views seem to portray?

Melvyn

PS Bill  -  Seem a fair and honest reply

[Pete Lavallee]

Or, perhaps Melvyn gave up golf because he couldn't get the ball anywhere near the hole just eyeballing the distance.

[Melvyn Morrow]

SL

Please note the question; it has zero to do with should we tolerate carts on a course its askes the very valuable question DO CARTS REALLY DUMB DOWN A GOLF COURSE.

That is the question I have tried to answer - my conclusions is yes because driving gives a different perspective to walking so has an affect which I believe can be defined as dumbing down a course. Hell even you have a right to an opinion on this site, whatever I say, and I promise not to call you an Asshole - you have Ran to thank for that.

Melvyn
( – now it that the Scottish, English or Welsh, perhaps even the NI Melvyn. One thing for certain he is a free spirit, must be time for a little spirit methinks.)    


PS Never had a problem on or off course finding the Hole MY eyes and distance are still more than OK, although my back is not.

[SL_Solow]

Melvyn;  You are more than entitled to have a view of your own.  Each of us is entitled to evaluate your view and form our own.  We are also entitled to express our opinion of your statements. That is called a debate and is the foundation for the anglo -american emphasis on free speech.  The idea is that by encouraging a "marketplace of ideas", there is a better opportunity for people to make informed decisions and reach appropriate conclusions. You appear to be delighted to criticize others and are quickly offended when you are challenged.  When one enters into the marketplace of ideas, whether the ideas are political (which is what our First Amendment really seeks to protect) or something as mundane as golf course architecture, one must be prepared to face criticism and defend oneself.  Repeating the same statements over and over and complaining that one is being treated unfairly is rarely persuasive.  No need to educate me on free speech or proper debate.

As to the "dumbing down" issue, you and I agree that walking provides a better experience.  We further agree that the rider gets a less sophisticated view of the course.  But unless the design is altered to accomodate carts, the "course"  and its architecture have not been "dumbed down", the experience for the rider has been lessened.  The course and its architecture are there to be experienced to the fullest by the walking golfer.  That is why David Kelly and others have focused on whether there are continuous paths and whether routings are altered because carts are available.  That is why several posters have noted outstanding courses that permit cart usage.  In short, one should not confuse the individuals lessening his experience by choosing to ride with the underlying architectural integrity that exists for the walking golfer.  If one is prepared to think about the problem,one can perceive the ability to separate a distaste for walking and other non-traditional means of playing from the evaluation of the underlying architecture.

[Garland Bayley]

...If one is prepared to think about the problem,one can perceive the ability to separate a distaste for walking and other non-traditional means of playing from the evaluation of the underlying architecture.

I have seen no conclusion from you about carts and the "underlying architecture." Do not carts compromise the "underlying architecture"?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Interesting points, although I was not really looking at it from a designer/architects point of view. I am not one, but that a humble golfer.

So if viewed by a golfer, which just by the way is the way I took the question to mean, I would certainly say that taking to a cart on the fairway is bad enough but if you have to follow cart tracks its X% so much worse. Not only are you getting a good dose of zero input from then  of course you are totally devoid of any GCA feeling, so one must surely experience a serious dumbing down. There is another item to consider that of exertion and how that plays on the mind and body. By sitting you are certainly not exercising, so blood flow and awareness is far less (perhaps this is why so many need to use distance aids as their brains are not up to temperature – aid users are cold blooded creature, must be to revert to aids). Forgetting my little diversion above, however, there is a real point to make regards a good walk generating good circulation keeping the body loose and ready, not to mention reducing stress and tension of the game itself. Minor perhaps, but still a factor a rider does not benefit from, so must add to this dumbing down.

More serious is the question that carts, I believe have dumbed down not just the game but many players as well. My belief that courses are becoming easy, that the older concentration of hazards are now becoming an apology to the modern designer, who seem to design for the top minority rather than average. Cross bunker appear to be a thing of the past, also guarding the rear of Green seems to be to stop the ball saving the player rather that challenge the golfer by letting it run. Fairways are not guarded unless you define the rough or side bunkers deterrents. I was under the impression that design was a method to guide and entice player to take the direct options, i.e. taking a chance or navigating the Hole in a way that may achieve Par. But this topic is not about design or GCA it’s about carts dumbing down the course.

Melvyn

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