The incredible 14th and 15th holes at Dormie Club !

[jonathan_becker]

Matt,

All I'm saying is that it's a preference thing.  Looking at my last photo, based on the hole location and the fact that the green slopes from left to right, I feel more comfortable playing a shorter lofted pitch back into that green slope.

On most any other hole of this length I would normally tend to lay up and play safer, but with the ball below my feet on a fuller swing, I would feel more comfortable with the shorter shot.  The target is so small I could easily miss it from anywhere.

I understand I'm probably in the minority regarding how this hole should be played.

[Ed Oden]

Matt, that green is small.  Hitting a wedge in is no bargain.  In my opinion, laying up does not materially increase your odds at making birdie and hitting driver (even if it goes to the right) does not materially increase your odds of making worse than par.  You have to hit a damn good second shot regardless of whether it is a full wedge or a little pitch.  I'm with Jonathan.  It's a matter of personal preference.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

If one cannot hit a green with a wedge -- the answer is simple -- head to the range and work it out.

Playing a fuller shot from 100-120 yards is much better than the half pitch. Check out why pros do this all the time.

If it's your personal preference then knock yourself out and do it. Just don't chunk it a hair or blade it. Very e-z to do in those half-yardage situations.

Or if you're up for it -- just bomb the driver on the green and forget the wedge approach in either situation.

[Ed Oden]

Matt, did you birdie the hole with your wedge?

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

I had a shorter putt for birdie when laying-up from 90-100 yards then having beat driver and finished all the way near the end of the fairway on the right.

Ed, there's no doubt that one can score from either situation -- the issue is one of probability and no doubt personal preference is part of tha dynamic. The half-wedge shot is a tough one -- a good bit tougher than the full shot. Watch the pros on TV and you will see exactly what I am saying. If you like your chances in the way you mentioned -- then by all means do it.

In any case - the 14th is a superb short hole -- on that front, we all agree.

[Jim Franklin]

Is the problem with the driver approach a "half wedge" or is it a chip shot? I know the pros like to bomb driver or 3 wood on par 5 seconds to get close. they hate the half wedge but like a short chip.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

There is no "short chip" because when you finish on the right side after hitting driver or 3-metal you have an elevated green which run at a direct different angle than where you are. If you hit it ONE INCH short of the green itself -- the ball WILL roll back to where you were before. From the tee the right side looks so inviting -- and that is the trap that C&C have set for the unsuspecting player.

If the situation on the right side were nothing more than your garden variety "chip shot" I'd be the first to say it's a no brainer and one should opt for it 98%+ of the time. It's just not.

Jim, preferences do matter -- but some people have preferences that run counter to ensuring a high rate of probability of success.

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks Matt, sounds like a good layup to the left for me.

[jonathan_becker]

Jim,

Assuming you get it down there on the right, it's more of a "soft with loft" floater approach.  I know a lot of people don't like that shot, but I've had to hit it a million times at the course I grew up playing and I'm comfortable with it.

If you end up short and center while staring down at the green, it's a chip or pitch shot.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Keep this in mind -- the "effective" distance for quite a few of the holes at TDC is more than what the scorecard suggests. The 14th is listed at 309 I believe but it's a bit longer because of the slightly uphill nature of both the land and where the green sits. Also, bermuda isn't exactly the fastest surface when in full bloom even when cut tight as it is at TDC. I just think the prudent play is the 90-100 yard lay-up on the left side. When there try it both ways and see what works best for you.

[jonathan_becker]

Matt,

I found this photo from sand hills insider....and this is in the general area that I want to hit my approach from.  Once again, we both agree it's preference, but on this hole I'll take this shot.  

[Jim Franklin]

Great looking approach. If my caddy won't mind, I will try both.

[Jim Franklin]

How big is the green?

[Cory Lewis]

For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14.  3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot.  I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.

[Jim Franklin]

For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14.  3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot.  I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.

Let's hope it is 5 after Sunday .

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played the DC two weeks ago. The terrain is spectacular and the routing is brilliant. The terrain reminds me a little of the Colorado Club, though the green sites seem to have more undulations and roll more at the DC.  What I loved the most were the options for second shots. If you can fly it high and softly hit at the hole if not bump and run it, but judge the speed and ground properly or pay the price. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

Or you could hit it right like I did with the driver, hit it over the green and have a wicked downhill chip coming back.
I don't recommend that route.

[Rory Connaughton]

14 is undoubtedly a terrific short hole. When I played DC, one member of the group drove the green and had a reasonable eagle putt, other hit irons and one had to fly the bunker from down the right slope.  Lot's of possibilities.

I really like the approach to 15 but would like to see a tee further to the left to create a wider angle and introduce a little more risk. As it stands it is not a difficult carry and you can play it at close to 90 degrees from the approach with little risk.

[Matt_Ward]

Rory / Tommy:

Agreed with your comments -- the hole can bite very quickly for those who nap even just slightly.

Rory -- don't know how a tee could be moved further to the left on #15. Maybe you can highlight where
it would be.

[Jim Franklin]

I just got back from playing Dormie and loved it. As for #14, I hit two balls as promised, but my driver hooked badly into the trees while my 4 iron left me a little under 80 yards. My approach with the 4 iron was to within 6 feet to a back pin, but my opponent picked it up before I could make my birdie  . My original drive was found and played through the trees and went long for a nightmarish chip back.

As for #15, I tried cutting a driver at the second bunker and hit a hook  . All in all I thought DC was a terrific course and reminded me a lot of Old Sandwich. I hope they survive because it is a deserving course in a golf rich town.

BTW, #2 was AWESOME! So much better than when I played there in 1998.

[Kevin Lynch]

For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14.  3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot.  I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.

Yes, but how many times have you seen somebody hit the green in two and walk off with a 7 (or was that just me)?

Played it for the first time last week, once with hickories and once with steels. My first C&C experience, and it left me yearning for another.

14 was simply incredible to me in its simplicity of design.  One bunker, a slippery green and tons of room to pick your plan.  I think the photo is the perfect angle, as you have a little angle into the left-to-right tilt of the green which helps you avoid the bunker, without the risk of a heavy pitch rolling back to your feet.  Also, if you are a little long, the comeback pitch isn't as daunting.  Playing down the right off the tee does give you a little benefit of hitting into the green slope, but I would hate to miss long and face the frightening chip directly down the slope (as Bruce indicated).  I putted off the green from the high side - I don't even want to imagine the risk on a pitch.

15 was another great hole, starting with the cape decision off the tee and then followed up by the numerous options for attacking the green.  On many holes at TDC, you could drop 3 balls in the fairway and find 3 different paths to the pin.  Phrases like "sling it off the slope" or "let it trundle down" were very common in our groups.  We had aerial artists, ground ball artists, hookers and faders in our group, and all had great fun at Dormie.

As the owner told me after our round (paraphrasing) "once you've reached Dormie, you can't lose."

[Bill_McBride]

Kevin, you had hookers in your group?   

[Mark Saltzman]

For what it's worth, in my caddying at Dormie I've seen 4 birdies made on 14.  3 of the 4 were people who hit driver and managed to keep their drive down the left side, i have seen one birdie made from a player that layed up down the right and hit a perfect wedge shot.  I've also seen somebody drive the green and 3 putt for par! Jonathan's picture is a perfect illustration of where you want to hit your second shot from to give you the best chance to make birdie IMO.

Yes, but how many times have you seen somebody hit the green in two and walk off with a 7 (or was that just me)?

Played it for the first time last week, once with hickories and once with steels. My first C&C experience, and it left me yearning for another.

14 was simply incredible to me in its simplicity of design.  One bunker, a slippery green and tons of room to pick your plan.  I think the photo is the perfect angle, as you have a little angle into the left-to-right tilt of the green which helps you avoid the bunker, without the risk of a heavy pitch rolling back to your feet.  Also, if you are a little long, the comeback pitch isn't as daunting.  Playing down the right off the tee does give you a little benefit of hitting into the green slope, but I would hate to miss long and face the frightening chip directly down the slope (as Bruce indicated).  I putted off the green from the high side - I don't even want to imagine the risk on a pitch.

15 was another great hole, starting with the cape decision off the tee and then followed up by the numerous options for attacking the green.  On many holes at TDC, you could drop 3 balls in the fairway and find 3 different paths to the pin.  Phrases like "sling it off the slope" or "let it trundle down" were very common in our groups.  We had aerial artists, ground ball artists, hookers and faders in our group, and all had great fun at Dormie.

As the owner told me after our round (paraphrasing) "once you've reached Dormie, you can't lose."

KLynch, an opposing view  ...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50104.html

[Kevin Lynch]

KLynch, an opposing view  ...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50104.html

Mark,

I read those, now that I have played the course.  I try to avoid discussions / photo tours of courses I may end up playing, since I want to enter the round with as few preconceptions / expectations as possible.

On 14, I think there is more of a trade-off than you give credit for.  If you are a solid lob wedge player, it may be a no- brainer to lay-up and play to your strength.  But, not everyone has that strength and the very firm, tight lies at Dormie can cause some doubt. 

I'm someone who's much more confortable flighting a lower ball or hitting a ground ball.  I also can't resist the thrill of trying to drive a par 4.  This hole is wonderful for that combination.  I can hit a runner only from the high left, which brings trees into play.  My 90 yard fairway just became 10-15 yards wide for that.  I try to drive the green (or get very close) and hit a slice, I'm facing a shot which is not my forte.  There are just so many options and trade offs, it's a great hole.

As for 15, I wasn't too focused on the cape tee shot.  A blind shot doesn't really phase me too much, so I'm not going to bite off too much.  The challenge for me on that shot is more distance control, as I may fly the fairway if I'm too safe.  But I really loved he last 50 yards of the hole and the green.  Just so many different options to get to the flag.

However, I probably need to play the cape version of the hole a few more times to really appreciate the trade offs.  I played the hickories in the morning, so we used the up tees, which makes it a completely different hole (potentially drivable with high risk/high reward).

[Mark Saltzman]

However, I probably need to play the cape version of the hole a few more times to really appreciate the trade offs.  I played the hickories in the morning, so we used the up tees, which makes it a completely different hole (potentially drivable with high risk/high reward).

We played the forward tees once as well.  Amazing drivable par-4 from there, for sure!