[Jud_T]

Those are the breaks of life.  Sometimes it works in your favour to be a man or woman, sometimes it doesn't. 

Is that quote from the Libyan Army commander before or after he took his government-issued Viagra and raped innocent women? 

[Brent Hutto]

Niall,

I said no such thing. I find quotas and all that other nonsense just as idiotic as wanting to form a "No Girls Allowed" club. Both are petty and ultimately self-defeating attempts to force people into arbitrary categories and then treat them as category-members rather than persons.

I'm all about respecting the autonomy and individual worth of persons. As such, I think people hung up on keeping to their own kind are very misguided. And unfortunately, the effects of such misguided attitudes can be actively harmful.

But I don't tell drunks what they can drink and I don't tell people with prejudices how they may express them. I respect their personal autonomy even to the extent of their being a drunk or a bigot. But my unwillingness to impose behavior on others does not mean I fail to recognize a thing for what it is.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jud

Now you are on rocky ground as I remember some interesting things happened to prisoners in Iraq. May I suggest we return to this topic to keep the debate alive.

Melvyn

[Marty Bonnar]

Et Viola!
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/39You-can-come-in-now.6760113.jp

harumph, harumph...
FBD.

[Kris Shreiner]

Niall,

The club I'm referring to is St. Andrew's Golf Club, subject of the article and thread!  I was a member there, as I mentioned.

I also belong to RD, and have for 10+ years. I've traveled widely in Scotland to play golf and have a solid understanding of how many clubs have separate gender organizations.

While St. Andrew's Golf Club has allowed women in the clubhouse for a very long time, they have not permitted them in the main bar area...basically the most central and normal place ALL would generally wish to use after their golf to converse, share a drink or get a nibble. Again, it's simply a silly, exclusionary policy. They're finally going to correct it and I'm glad, even if it took a governmental law to prompt the change.

Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right. In the states, many clubs and facilities stuff their caddies in idiotic white suits that are uncomfortable and degrading. Much of this is due to the misguided rationale that because Augusta does it, it's the way to go. How disgusting!

That white suit crap is a vestige of the racial prejudice era and needs to go! If you look at footage of the early Masters there were no white suits. The caddies wore normal clothes and many looked not much different than the players. Someone decided that the caddies needed to be put in their place and that white suit sure looks good against that dark skin of the caddies, almost all of which were black up until recently.

Spare me the... they look professional, it easier to tell who is a caddie, is simplifies the dress code etc.  EVERYONE with one ounce of reason knows it's all B.S. Will Augusta ever be big enough to burn the white suits? It saddened me to hear Ben Crenshaw's caddie talk about his fifty years at the Masters there and describe the "proper" uniform that Mr. Roberts had stipulated they wear. He said he was going to keep it on for a while after his final round this year. I recognize the pride he had being an Augusta caddie, but it's pathetic that he defined his place by that suit. Now he was always well treated and enjoyed a special relationship with some members most other caddies didn't, so he may not have experienced the sting so many others have. But to not understand what it really stood for and represented was revealing.

If one looks at the practical responses made throughout this thread, it appears we are headed in the right direction, but there is a long way to go, both in the game and society in general. Let us all keep striving to improve both in our own small ways

Cheers,
Kris

[Melvyn Morrow]

Next on the agenda is to have only 2-6 carts per club (subject to Membership) 

Melvyn

[John Kavanaugh]

If you enjoy playing golf, having a few beers, telling a couple of lies and then going home with your best buddy to make love, have at it.  I like to keep my work, golf and home worlds separate. Sorry. It's no wonder so many of you are headed for divorce, get a life outside of your marriage so you can look forward to going home.

[Garland Bayley]

Niall, Marty et. al,

Here's the problem.  Sure it's fine to say it's a private club and I respect their right to legally do whatever the hell they like.  Freedom from government control and all that.  In the states there are male clubs where women aren't allowed to set foot on the grounds (Chicago I believe has the most in the country).  Here's the rub.  Imagine that the best golf course and/or most desirable social club in your area is male only.  Now imagine that prominent business people entertain clients there (surely not much of a stretch).  Now imagine that the most promising potential client in town is an aspiring golfer who'd give his left nut to play the aforementioned course or socialize at said club and might well be swayed to throw some business toward the salesman who got him out there.  Now imagine that the two best salespeople in town are a man and a women, both avid golfers.  See the problem of access and discrimination?  And don't tell me that a round at Palmetto vs. a round at Augusta National will have the same effect on the client...I'll wait for someone to intelligently refute that logic...

Jud,

You beat me to it. Well done. But it is not just the business with guests, it is also the business kept within the club members that inhibits commerce for those left out.

I just finished Warren Buffet's biography. In Omaha, he wanted to get a Jewish friend into his club. His approach was to get the all jewish club to admit him as a member, and then he sponsored the Jewish friend into his club having already eliminated their excuse for not admitting him.

[John Kavanaugh]

The Buffet story.  You can't go to Omaha and not drive by his house.  http://www.jewishomaha.org/page.aspx?id=54871

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought it would be cool to play the Jewish club in Omaha that Buffet made famous, oops, it went broke and now anyone can play there.  I can't argue with the fact that it is better to have no club at all than one who discriminates. http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/89547837.html

[Mark Chaplin]

Most of the UK men only clubs are following traditions over 100 years old. I'm writing this wearing a Black Sheep shirt where the tradition is somewhat newer and more rigid.

Marty the "jobsworth" was obviously in order ejecting anyone from private property!

[Bob_Huntley]

I love women as my friends here on GCA know. I invite them to play at my club here in California and do not begrudge them the opportunity to out drive me by fifty yards. However, I happen to be lucky enough to belong to a couple of clubs, one of them allows women to join and own a membership in their own right; I have sponsored more than one. Another club to which I belong, has, for something over a couple of hundred years been an all male enclave and has decided to stay so, I agreed with their decision. My wife has no objection to my stance; she attended a Ladies Evening there and found it the stuffiest place imaginable.

The reason for access to business possibilities in golf is endless and was no better illustrated than by Cliff Roberts at Augusta. It has been mooted that the captains of American industry certainly guided the company's pension funds his way. Some of the remarks in this thread hint at the politics of envy. I am sure many you know the genesis of this quote, I'll repeat it once more, "Life is inherently unfair, get used to it."  

Marty Bonner you are the best.

Bob

[Brent Hutto]

Perhaps the comment was not referring to me but I am confident envy is one of the few sins which are blessedly not among my faults. Lacking charity toward some, no doubt. But my feeling would be equally uncharitable toward a bunch of low-status losers without a pot to pee in if they chose to acts as if a "No Girls Allowed" clubhouse were a sacred right instead of a carryover from a less enlightened era. Which in almost all cases is exactly what it is.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think the subject was best covered in the series Seinfeld.  You don't want your worlds colliding.
 
"You have no idea of the magnitude of this thing. If she is allowed to infiltrate this world then George Costanza as you know him ceases to exist. You see, right now I have Relationship George. But there is also Independent George. That's the George you know, the George you grew up with... Movie George, Coffee Shop George, Liar George, Bawdy George."
"I love that George."
"Me too, and he's dying. If Relationship George walks through this door, he will kill Independent George. A George divided against itself cannot stand!"

[Kalen Braley]

I totally get the "birds of the same feather flock together" thing...and thats how it should be.

But what I don't get is the drawing of arbitrary lines in the sand to determine which people are "like" you.  Just because someone is born with the same equipment I was born with does not predispose me to have a kin-ship with that person.  I've become friends with women in a purely plutonic way and can spend hours shooting the shit, having intellectual conversation, and even spray in a dirty joke every now and then. Its all about being of the same mind, not being born with a twig and berries. Same goes for other factors including racial, economic, social, etc.  

I would hope people would include others based on their character, wit, viewpoints, mental state of being, etc over some outwardly "visible only" criteria.  But I guess that takes actual work to do so, as its much easier to look at someone for 2 seconds, think to themselves "wrong equipment" or "wrong racial background" and dismiss them without nary a word exchanged.

[Sean_A]

Kalen

I don't see any inconsistency in not wanting to join a club whoese membership is based on gender yet being okay with their existence.  Its a big step to say single sex clubs should be banned.  This stance raises questions about many other issues such as single sex education or indeed education based on religious beliefs.  Sometimes its difficult for Americans to get their head around these seemingly undemocratic institutions and mores because democracy is the most important ingredient which built American society and political llife.  There isn't a common culture, religion or language which acts as a glue for society.  That glue is the concept of democracy and all it may mean.  We must always remember that the US is a unique experiment in society, but it doesn't make it the best or most righteous.  It would do well for American politicians to remember this before embarking on dodgy foreign policy which can lead to armed conflict as a means of achieving that policy.  Live and let live my friend.

Ciao 

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I would agree with you on your 1st statement.  I don't think they should be made illegal either, and I don't see anything in my last post that implied that.

As for the political/social issue, specifically regarding women, I have a slightly different take on it.  In our current modern context where women in most countries are free to have jobs, change careers, travel, have friends,  go to school, own property and possessions, and even pick thier spouse...we have to remember that its only been in the last 100 years or so that any of these have become a reality for most women.

If the world didn't have such a long and brutal track record of utterly/completely oppressing and mistreating women and holding them like property, then an all male club would seem harmless on its face.  But seeing that these clubs still exist, the only taste it leaves in my mouth is an ugly, stale reminder of the yesteryear good old boy days that has proliferated on this planet from day one.

[John Kavanaugh]

Most guys use this women are equal line to get laid. Even though I am close to the ideal hairless large brain no genitailia creature of the future, I believe it is purely science fiction that we will evolve away from the male/female species we enjoy today. Sexual tension is vital to our survival. Who benefits from pretending it doesn't exist?

I am not a member of an all male club but do prefer to settle up bets in the men only grill.

[Kalen Braley]

Most guys use this women are equal line to get laid. Even though I am close to the ideal hairless large brain no genitailia creature of the future, I believe it is purely science fiction that we will evolve away from the male/female species we enjoy today. Sexual tension is vital to our survival. Who benefits from pretending it doesn't exist?

I am not a member of an all male club but do prefer to settle up bets in the men only grill.

John,

I have never oppressed/excluded my wife in the 16 years we've been married.  She has the exact same freedoms in hanging out with girls, going on trips, having a career, and doing her own thing as a complete individual.

All that being said, we've never had an issue with lack of Sexual tension.  However, if you feel the need to keep your woman home alone, jobless, barefoot, and pregnant to get it up at night, then you may want to see a shrink for that! 

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,

My wife would prefer I don't sit around telling the occasional dirty joke to my platonic women friends. That is respecting her not oppressing her.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

That is just too much information, I am not interested in the mating dance of the Kavanaugh male bird - anyway I thought all Kavanaugh's dies out with the Dodo last century or was it the previous one?

Being more serious I have no problem with women or men only clubs as long as the each can join in some of the rooms. There should IMHO be a social area comprising of Restaurant, Lounge Bar where wives, girlfriend or family members can meet or at the very least sit in a comfortable Lounge with food, hot and cold drink facility. Surely it’s only civilised to know that your partner or family are safe and awaiting your company for a meal or drink before returning home. The rest of the club can remain firmly behind the Male/Female Golfing Curtain where Testosterone or Estrogen will not mix (although I have my suspicions about one or two members where it’s already occurred) until Hell Freezes over.

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

I thought it would be cool to play the Jewish club in Omaha that Buffet made famous, oops, it went broke and now anyone can play there.  I can't argue with the fact that it is better to have no club at all than one who discriminates. http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/89547837.html

Maybe it's good we have private clubs so people like you won't inflict yourself on people at courses where everyone can play.

[Jud_T]

Sean,

So if such clubs should have the right to discriminate, then I suppose you don't begrudge companies the right to forbid their employees from doing any business entertaining there.  This is now the case here in several prominent instances...

[Sean_A]

Sean,

So if such clubs should have the right to discriminate, then I suppose you don't begrudge companies the right to forbid their employees from doing any business entertaining there.  This is now the case here in several prominent instances...

Jud

All private clubs have the rigt to be discriminating - that is how membership rolls are determined.  No matter how those rolls are determined somebody, somewhere will have a bee in their bonnet about it.  Its part of group dynamics to have whingers and those who get on with life.  I can't imagine my wife whinging about single sex golf or whatever clubs.  Its a total non-issue.  She knows it is a waste of time to worry about such things - and I am betting most intelligent women feel the same.  That said, if women or whoever are allowed into a club, I am flat against a membership category based on gender.  Now we are getting at the heart of true discrimination.

As you well know there is doing business and there is doing business.  All I can say is I wouldn't have a company membership at a single sex institution.  From an employer's PoV it doesn't make sense to exclude 50% of the workforce from my employee pool.  However, what my employees do on their time with their money is none of my business. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Niall,

I said no such thing. I find quotas and all that other nonsense just as idiotic as wanting to form a "No Girls Allowed" club. Both are petty and ultimately self-defeating attempts to force people into arbitrary categories and then treat them as category-members rather than persons.

I'm all about respecting the autonomy and individual worth of persons. As such, I think people hung up on keeping to their own kind are very misguided. And unfortunately, the effects of such misguided attitudes can be actively harmful.

But I don't tell drunks what they can drink and I don't tell people with prejudices how they may express them. I respect their personal autonomy even to the extent of their being a drunk or a bigot. But my unwillingness to impose behavior on others does not mean I fail to recognize a thing for what it is.

Brent

You are quite right, you didn't say any such thing but it seemed to me that your thinking was more towards a prescriptive way that clubs should be run. As for being hung up on keeping to my own kind which presumably means I'm hell bent in frequenting only all male institutions, thats very far from the truth not only for me but I'm sure for the vast majority of members at the club in question. I might also add that females are not excluded from the clubhouse and that lady visitors are welcome at one of the two courses. The other course doesn't admit any visitors as far as I know.

To my way of thinking thats better than a high end club excluding all visitors irrespective of sex, colour and creed. I might add that perhaps the average club in the US effectively excludes a higher percentage of people by dint of the cost of membership. Not that should have any bearing on whether an all male policy is right or wrong.

One other thing I would say is that I joined the club in question because quite a lot of my golfing pals were members and I liked the courses. The fact that it was all male had no bearing one way or the other. So again I'll respectively suggest that you are wrong to class me as a bigot, if thats what you are suggesting, as you are looking at the matter with a scewed perspective and not a lot of information.

Niall

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