Why do you think the pro's bitch about Poppy Hills

[Tony Ristola]

Why do you think the pro's bitch about Poppy Hills?

Ron Whitten article:

Hard to figure why Poppy Hills gets such a bad rap

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/poppyhills.html

[redanman (Guest)]

It doesn't reward the PGATour game.

[THuckaby2]

Interesting.  As a fairly frequent player of said course, I was itchin' to disagree with something here... but I can't.  I really think Whitten has this nailed, right on.

Why do the pros bitch?  Because it ain't Cypress.  What ISN'T gonna look bad compared to that?

They also prefer flat greens, and even in today's softened state, there are some serious elephants buried at Poppy.

It is one hell of a bargain for us NCGA members.  I say keep bad-mouthing it - maybe that'll make it easier to get a tee time some day!

TH

[Tony Ristola]

I haven't played there, but I also thought it's because the pro's can figure out the greens on the first or second visit.

[Ed_Baker]

Ron Whitten..."the preeminent golf course architecture critic."

What? Did Tommy N. pass away and nobody told us?  

Good article by Mr. Whitten, however I must take issue with one of his statements, "....illogically placed bunkers." Does this mean that Mr. Whitten would subscribe to a "formulamatic" design philosophy?

A pretty fair architect once stated "there is no such thing as a misplaced bunker." I think time has proven him correct.

[TEPaul]

Why do they bitch?

The Tour's new slogan, "These guys are good" actually covers that quite nicely! It means these guys are some of the world's best bitchers!

[Tom]

Having played it (finally a course being discussed on this forum that I have played quick, quick !!!!) I also wonder whether it is also because it is actually quite difficult compared to a soft Pebble (at this time of year anyway - soft in terms of the course gets more difficult as the ground gets harder).  Can't comment about Spyglass !!!

In short maybe they can't beat up on it like they do with other courses.

I think the difficulty comes from a number of areas some of which I am not really qualified to comment upon but I suspect at this time of year, being slightly inland it plays very, very long.  That can make the carries needed to reach the corner of the doglegs enormous - particularly as Trent Jones tends to leave a strategically placed tree at the elbow which I was constantly trying to cut one around or thread a ball through !!!

For what it is worth, I really liked it as well !!!

Just a thought

Tom

[THuckaby2]

Tom - the scores for the AT&T typically go Spyglass, Poppy, Pebble in terms of toughness.  So yeah, they don't beat up on Poppy.  And you are indeed on to something - as I recall the pros bitched and moaned for years about Spyglass too when it was added to the Crosby.

Some still do....

I'd say it plays no longer than any of the others though - drainage is actually a little better at Poppy, due to more modern techniques (v. Pebble) and God knows what, but anything's better (Spyglass).  So length isn't the issue... it's the greens mainly I'd say.

Aw hell, seems to me there are pros that are gonna bitch about anything, and those are the squeeky wheels we hear.

TH

[Tony Ristola]

Tom:  That bit about leaving trees at the corner of doglegs (unless I misinterpreted it) surely doesn't sound like it's too user friendly for the average guy.

[George Pazin]

Haven't played it either, but I liked what I read in Whitten's article regarding Bobby's decision to segment the large greens so that there are different target areas. Sounds kind of like how Pat M describes NGLA #6. Is this a typical RTJ Jr. tactic? Why isn't this approach used more, seems kind of ideal for a course with heavy play?

Ed Baker -

I think if you reread Ron Whitten's article, you'll see that he refers to others' criticism of "illogically placed bunkers" - I don't think this is necessarily his view, but I could be wrong. I sincerely doubt he subscribes to a formulaic approach to bunkering.

[Tim_Jackson]

I know the grow in greenskeeper form Poppy Hills well.  He stated that during the construction he had many issues with how the golf course was being constructed.  One of the results of the poorer construction is that the course does not drain very well.  I know that winter in Monterey can be quite wet.  I would guess, for good or bad, the players dislike the soft playing conditions.  I think Paul also said that they began rebuilding some of the greens within a couple of years due to unmowable conditions.  

[THuckaby2]

Not much drains well on Monterey Peninsula but I'm here to attest that while I don't doubt Poppy has problems, it's still the best of the three being played by far.  So perhaps the pros don't like the soft conditions, but they can't complain relative to the other courses (as they sure seem to do)!

As for the course being "user-friendly" that's an interesting question... given the real purpose of the course was to serve as the home course of our regional golf association, one would think it would be more "playable" and less "penal"... But it's certainly not and I for one am glad they didn't dumb it down.  It's not that bad as it is...

Of course, our golf association is "interesting" in its methods, as our 2nd home course (Poppy Ridge, built much later) is basically unwalkable.

TH

[Tom]

Tony

I may not have explained myself very well - I will try again as it is one of the most intriguing architectural features I have seen.

The classic example is the 8th hole which is a sharp dogleg right at about 240-250 yards.

When the course was constructed they basically cut through the Monterey pines as it says in Whittens review but they were careful to leave certain trees in place.

At the eight the tree is placed at the elbow about 15-20 yards from the treeline.  In order to get past it completely off the tee you have to drive about 260 - 270 therefore.  If you don't the trees in the elbows are generally quite free of branches so you do have an opportunity to thread one between the treeline and the tree but it isn't easy.

In terms of user friendliness, I thought it was an intriguing design idea but because of it the course becomes much more favourable for long hitters.  For the average player it is still worth a look because it is cheap compared to others down 17 mile drive.

Hope this helps

Tom

[Dan King]

Excuse me if Mr. Whitten already mentions this. Golf Digest's site is too slow for me to deal with right now.

Pros love to beat up on par-5 holes.  Since Poppy Hills has five of these, most players look at the course on paper and figure it is a par-67 before they even tee it up.

The par-5s at Poppy Hills are very easy par holes, but can lead to disaster when trying to get to them in two. They all require a precise tee shot followed by a shot to a green with a lot of trouble around it.

Even when I used to be longer, I learned to play all five of them as three-shot holes. They are all reasonably easy with a wedge in your hand. Ends up I had a lot more birdies this way than when I used to go for them in two. The pros will never learn this lesson because they just aren't all that bright. Most of them believe a par-5 less than 600 yards should be reached in two.  They don't take into account anything but the yardage. By going for them in two they will birdie three, maybe four of them, but usually they will also bogie or double bogie one or two.

Take a look at the screcards, you'll see there is a patern to how they play the par-5s at Poppy. There are many more bogies and doubles than there should be for such push-over holes.

"Even the men's room has a double dogleg."
 --Dave Stockton (on the Poppy Hills course in Pebble Beach)

[Bob_Huntley]

I haven't played Poppy for years but when I did I hated the mounds in the greens. Tom Huckaby, put me right on this, but didn't the 17th par three have a mound, center back, about the size of Volkswagen?

[THuckaby2]

I remember that mound on 17 and it sure isn't there today.  Of course in the old days by the time I got to 17 I might have been seeing things, so I don't completely trust my memory!  But I sure think you're right, Bob.  Today 17 has a fairly gentle ridge through the middle.

TH

[Tony Ristola]

Dan King:  Heard this on The Golf Channel.  Supports your take on the par-5's...  as Tiger played them at even par!  

[Paul Richards]

Tony:

The real answer to your question is that they would love
to go back to Cypress Point, in the AT & T rotation.

Who wouldn't rather play Cypress than Poppy?