[Geoffrey_Walsh]

As a player who learned the game playing at a muni in rough shape (Maple Moor GC in White Plains, NY - home of the 7 hour round) I have fond memories of my time on the public links.  With the recent rennovations of TP and Bethpage, it has started me to dream of other muni's whose greatness could be revealed if someone would just lift the years of neglect away.

My candidates:

Cobbs Creek (Philadelphia, PA - H. Wilson 1917):  As a resident of the Philly area, this was one of the saddest rounds I have ever played.  I played with an old time resident, who pointed out what the course was like before they changed it in an attempt to speed up play.  I liked the green on #2, #3 as a driveable par 4 and #5 with the creek bisecting the fairway.  You can see some design similarities with its big brother up the street (Merion).  It is under new ownership, and they are maintaining it better, but I would love to see it restored to the initial routing.  You can see a great course underneath the wear and tear, but someone needs to uncover it.

Norwich GC (Norwich, CT - D. Ross 1920)  I played this course the last time I visited the Mohegan Sun Casino in CT.  The greens are quite small and the topography allows for a number of sidehill/quirky lies.  I particularly liked #2, #16, & #17.  #17 in particualr has some great topography, and looks like the kind of hole you would find in Ireland.  However, it is a bit odd to end with the short par 3 18th.  I would rather see 18 become #16 and then play #16/#17 as #17 and #18.  I have often commented that the Casino should buy the property (it will never happen), and restore the course to tournament level shape.

Any others out there?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Is Walsh your first name?  (edit: You changed it!)

Anyways, this has been talked about in the past where we had a huge list of hidden gems.  Have even talked about only public ones.  I'll e-mail you a version of John Conley's compiled list.

Wilmington (N.C.) Municipal is an old Ross gem that was recently restored and is profiled on this site under the "Courses" links.

I'll also nominate Wailua on the Hawaiian island of Kaua'i.

[Stan Dodd]

Hesperia Golf Club in the high desert east of Los Angeles.  The course hosted a couple of episodes of World Championship Golf in the early 60's.  A Billy Bell design.  Every hole can bite you. Natural desert area line each hole. And green fee of about $20.  It is a great design because it is truly a course that maintains itself.  The current ownership basically just mows the grass, if it ever got real care it would be top drawer.
6,900 hards and plays firm and fast with slick greens.  Give it a try if you are travelling between LA and Vegas.

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

I heartily concur on Cobb's Creek.  I played this past summer and the greens are a disgrace, even under another new management company.  Could you describe what the original routing consisted of?  My understanding is that about 8 of the current holes are original, 4 are close representations, and 6 are nothing like what Wilson designed.

I also understand that a lot of the changes came about during WWII, when large portions of the course were utilized for air defense purposes.  I don't know what they did for "speed of play", but it obviously didn't work.

Also, do you know if any of the current Karakung course was part of the original Cobbs layout?  A few of the adjacent holes look to be very much in the mode of Wilson's style.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

All,

Another GREAT candidate for some type of restoration is H. Chandler Egan's North Fulton Golf Course in Atlanta.  Some really wonderful holes are just lost in a maintenance quagmire.  The course is as challenging as one could ever want, and it could be primo, with the right TLC.

[Evan Fleisher]

Shivas,

Dude!  Half-way to Iowa?  If is was, I'd be driving over to play it all the time!

Actually, it is a Ken Kavanaugh design, and I agree that it might be considered a "hidden gem", but the last time I was there it was in fine condition, and really not in any need of "uncovering" of the great course that lied underneath.

Love that opening hole with a chance of driving the green if you can carry that fairway bunker.

[Evan Fleisher]

Shivas,

I know you have talked about G.W. Dunne in the past.  I just must have caught the old lady on a "good day" several years back when I played it, because it was in pretty fine shape.  But...I had heard of all the horror stories, condition-wise...we happened to luck out.

Another course I'd add to this list in Manakiki in Willoughby Hills, OH.  Although it will never be a truly outstanding course, if this (and the other Cleveland Parks Department run courses) were given a bit more attention and care, Cleveland could have an outstanding city-run set of courses.  I'd love to see this old Ross course in all it's original/former glory.

Maybe Tim Weiman could give us a bit more insight into this (and the other) Cleveland parks courses.

[Patrick Hitt]

I would like to nominate Belmont GC in Richmond and Rock Creek Park in Washington D.C. Belmont still contains many Tillinghast features that made the course the 1949 PGA Championship venue when it was the Hermitage GC. A restoration could really shine up this muni gem. Rock Creek Park is kind of a mystery course. The 4,800 yard par 65 has been credited to Flynn by Cornish and Whitten. The course suffers from years of neglect and a reluctance of the National Park Service to trim a single branch. The topography is superior and there are many classic features ready to be rediscovered on the property. It has been years since I've enjoyed a round there but I seem to remember a long uphill par 3 very similar to Flynn's 14th ? at Philly CC.

[wsmorrison]

You mean the 15th at Philly CC.  That is an awsome hole. Only aced twice in over 70 years of play!  I am writing a book on the courses of William Flynn and am finding it exceptionally difficult to get info on Rock Creek.  Do you know anyone associated with RC that I could contact?  Otherwise the book is coming along great.  Anyone with info on Flynn and his courses can contact me at:  wsmorrison@hotmail.com  I would appreciate any assistance.  Thanks

[Dan Grossman]

Two courses that immediately come to mind are Mark Twain GC in Elmyra, NY and Eastmoreland GC in Portland, OR.  Both are munis in the true sense of the word (I think it only costs around $20 to play at both places).  Mark Twain is an old Donald Ross course with some of the wildest greens I have seen.  Unfortunately, some of the bunkers have been grassed in, but it is a pretty neat place.  Eastmoreland is an H. Chandler Egan course.  The deterioration here is mostly overhanging trees and removed bunkers.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mark Twain (Elmira) and Soaring Eagles (another muni in nearby Horseheads) have been mentioned here a few times in the past by myself and Mike Cirba.  Soaring Eagles' greens just might be wilder.

[Anthony_Nysse]

L.E. Kaufman Golf Course in Wyoming, MI. It's amuni, designed by Michigan architect, Bruce Matthews, Sr. It was designed in the early '60's. It's a traditional stlye course with tree-line fairways and table top greens. It presents some of the best, fastest and truest poa anna greens anywhere.(10.5-11 for normal play) It's always one of the best conditioned muni's in the state, but it's conditioning rivals many of the area country clubs. It's one of Golf Digest's best buys and it's about $25. Tee times are hard to come by and bribing the stater can usually get you on.(ala Long Island courses )

[Craig Van Egmond]

Here is Washington a hidden gem would have to The Classic in fabulous Spanaway.  It will set you back about $35 on the weekend, but this Bill Overdorf track will give you way more than your money's worth, with some of the best firm and fast greens on any public course in the state. A true treat, but you have to go out of your way to get there.

[Matt_Ward]

One "hiden gem" that comes quickly to mind in my "neck of the woods" is Francis Bryne GC in West Orange, NJ. The course was formerly named Essex County West and was owned some years ago by the private club that goes by the name of Essex County CC and is situated high up on a hill adjacent to the public club.

Both courses were designed by Charles "steam shovel" Banks and it is a true shame what has happened to the old EC West Course. Eventually the private club made the foolish mistake in selling the property after running it as a public course for a number of years. A number of members still regret that decision.

In fact, both courses served as host to an exhibition by the famed Bobby Jones in the 1930's and he remarked that the 15th hole on the West Course was one of the finest long par-4's he had played.

Eventually the course became the property of Essex County the government entity and sadly is only a shell of its former self.

Banks designed a course that in its former glory had plenty of pitch and contour to the land and to the putting surfaces. The course probably at its peak topped out at just over 6,600 yards but it was a real gem among public courses in the Garden State.

Thank God we still have a fine public course in the Knoll (Parsippany, NJ) which is also a Banks Course but has been far better preserved than the one in West Orange. George Bahto is involved with restoring this real dynamite course and I will be looking forward to seeing how things are progressing at the Knoll this summer. Incidentally, Dave Marr listed the Knoll as one of his ten finest courses in an old GD magazine issue a few years back.

[Tim_Weiman]

Evan:

I'm not sure Manakiki could qualify as a "hidden gem" because it sure gets a lot of play.  So does Sleepy Hollow, the other really good muni course in Cleveland.

As for Manakiki, I was surprised a few months back when Brad Klein seem to knock the course.  No, it's not up to the standards of a Bethpage Black or the elite Donald Ross courses, but for $18 its pretty tough to beat.

[Evan Fleisher]

Tim,

Thanks for that feedback.  I know that Manakiki and Sleepy Hollow both get a lot of play (so not necessarilt in the category of hidden gem)...but I thought that for THIS group, it might one day be considered such, should the right people, money and resources truly take care of the course and bring out it's special/highlighted features.

I haven't played Sleepy Hollow in about 4-5 years...is it still worth the ride out to Brecksville to play it?  Especially with all of the other great private and newer public layouts around the area?

[ian andrew (Guest)]

Lakeview Municilap in Mississauga, Ontario (near Toronto).
Held a Canadian Open, excellent set of holes. Its 6,200 from the tips, but has lots of challenge. The 97 yard 17th is really fun (all or nothing shot)! Last time I played was Saturday Morning for a stagering $30 canadian ($18 US).

[JMD]

It may not really qualify as "hidden" unless by that we mean "hidden under the wear and tear of play," but George Wright Golf Course in Boston is a first-rate Ross layout.  After the first two holes, which are undistinguished, the course compares (if conditioning is taken off the table) with some of his best work in Massachusetts.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

By hidden I meant a great layout that has been poorly maintained... similar to what happened at Bethpage.  George Wright GC intrigues me.  JMD, tell me a little bit more about the course...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

Essex County West was originally the lower 18 in a 36 hole complex at Essex County.  My understanding was that the depression caused the club to sell off the lower 18 (west)

It, along with the East course provided a terrific combination of challenging golf courses, one played on a relatively level site, the other traversing the first Orange mountain (hill)

I would prefer a reversion to its original name, but the basic design of the course remains as a good architectual test.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Eagle Point, in Medford, Oregon. An absolutely fabulous RTJ Jr. course that tops out at arounf $40. Beautifully worked into the land, very few weak holes. Conditions are always wonderful. I could play there every day.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt/Pat,

I totally agree with you fellows on Francis Byrne (formerly Essex CC West) as a course that would benefit incredibly from some type of restoration to it's former self.  The "skeleton" that is left there is so intriguing, and a very interesting, difficult, course in and of itself.  One only wonders what it could be.  

By the way, as to Patrick's wishing for a return to the original name, who the F@*(# was Francis Byrne??

It's sort of funny...in Philly there is a public course designed by Alex Findlay that used to be called Holmesburg CC.  These days it's called John Byrne GC.  In researching the design origin there, I found out that John Byrne was actually the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commissioner.  Why they renamed the golf course after him is a mystery for the ages!

[Nick_Ficorelli]

Belvedere in Charlevoix Mi
Willie Watson in Northern Michigan 1927
Full course irrigation added in 2000
Original muck greens from an old river bed
Home of countless Michigan Am's
Was private in the mornings and still may be
Front  and back nine separated by highway

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

He's a former Governor, not a golf figure

[Matt_Ward]

Pat / MikeC:

FYI:

The West Course at Essex County was made into a facility available to the public to play in 1939, but owned and operated by the private club in the manner I just described.

The West stayed in the hands of the private club until 1979 when it was sold to the Essex County Park Commission. That decision, from what I understand, is still regretted by more than few members.

Keep in mind that prior to selling the West in 1979 the private club had taken land from the previous existing 7th green and shortened the hole to accomodate, I believe, was an expansion of the private club's grounds for other activities.

In addition, the land not only shortened the marvelous uphill par-4 7th, but the back part of the 8th tee was also reduced a corresponding length and reduced this hole to nothing more than a short hole of little difficulty.

The County stewardship allowed numerous bunkers to fall into disrepair and the general conditons have been at best so-so. It would be most interesting to get the take of George Bahto who has a total understanding of the mind of Charles Banks.

The former West Course used to be easily among the 2-3 best taxpayer owned courses in the Garden State. I don't know the last time you played the course Pat but it is far from the layout you remember playing. I only wish the people in charge today really understood what real possibilities are with this former wonderful course. The 15th still to this day is a hole that all should see because it still is a gem as Bobby Jones previously mentioned during his 36-hole exhibition.

Hope this helps ...

[les claytor]

Just saw a documentary on the diamond industry and how hard it is to actually find a gemstone.  Hope it's easier to find a decent track for a few pesos.

I've trumpeted several courses in the past and unfortunately I've been too busy building to turn up too many more.  

Cleveland: Lost Nation (short and pure, low profile, push-up)
Highland Park GC: a good 36 hole track in need of a program (drainage, bunkers, tees, trees / please let me at it)

Charleston Muni: the best bargain in the country at $15 daily fee (low profile in the low country, fun golf)

San Francisco:  
Gleaneagles (a worthy cult following, has Eric given the course back to the city?)
Sharp Park: built by the good doctors team, fun course, beautiful area
Golden Gate Park:  fun par3 among the dunes and cypress
Lincoln Park: a truly sporting course in need of a pruning

LA
You can hardly call Griffith Park hidden, but the courses have a good feel if you can get on.
Pasadena Muni, ditto (really hard to get on here, too many tournaments on the weekends)

Kansas City
Swope park is well known and in decent shape, and offers some nice Tillie touches.

So little time, so many tracks

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