Can a golf course with poor routing be good?

[Mike Hendren]

Though the architects and cognoscenti will predictably answer no, I'm not to sure. 

There seems to be some sentiment out there that for a given property there is only one great routing that only pure genius can uncover. 

Few if any of us can discern whether a routing is poor v. bad, mediocre v. good, or very good v. great.  We don't get to see or play the runner-up routing.  At best we can differentiate between poor and very good.

I recall reading that Doak opined that the routing should follow one's natural walking of the site, or something to that effect.  Plop a dozen of us down in a single-spot on a 200 acres site, however and my guess is we'd box the compass in our first few steps. 

[Adam Clayman]

In every discussion about good golf courses the routing is always a key factor. I don`t know you get to good with a poor routing. 

Tim, Good, is  close to average.

The scale apparently goes like this;
Bad
Not so good
Good
Pretty Good
Very Good
and
Great.

 

[George Pazin]

There seems to be some sentiment out there that for a given property there is only one great routing that only pure genius can uncover.

Just curious why you feel this way.

[Mac Plumart]

Are there any great courses routed through a neighborhood?

Has anyone played Highland Links?  Can you talk about that courses routing?

[Mike_Young]

I think all a course needs to be good is a very good maintenance budget and supt....that is..based on Adams ranking system...
IMHO a course can't be great without a very good routing...but there are not that many great courses compared to the overall number out there...
As to being great in a housing development....I think possible if not double loaded and mainly a core course....
BUT IMHO most on this site determine great by architecture....the public determines great by maintenance and amenities....so I feelthe average guy thinks there are many great courses with poor routings and he could care less....

[David Kelly]

Are there any great courses routed through a neighborhood?

Pasatiempo is the most obvious one that comes to mind and you cross a street at least 6 times.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks David.  I haven't played Pasatiempo, but I hope to sooner rather than later.

I'll try to check out some aeriels of the course. 

Any others?

[David Kelly]

Are we architects putting too much emphasis on routing, and should we instead just focus more on building great holes?

If only.  I think way too many practicing architects today are trying to build a succession of what they think are great golf holes at the expense of the routing.  Engh being one example.

[Jason Topp]

Kalen:

What constitutesd a poor routing varies from person to person varies. My point is - regardless of your definition if the routing is poor but the holes are good it is an interesting
Question whether the trade off is worth it.

[Sean_A]

The routing question is a tough one for a regular joe like me.  I don't really know what will produce the best holes, but after seeing a course a few times I can wonder about the walk (in terms of green to tee, up n' down, from and to the house), the variety/diversity of shots/tees/greens, the use of nearby areas and blindness.  Even if I see lots of problems this in no way means a better routing was available because I usually figure there are reasons why the archie chose what I consider to be a less than desirable routing or that I disagree about the importance or lack of for any particular element.  I have my opinions on these matters, but that doesn't make them right.  

I feel it is also okay to be critical of a routing even if a better can't be had.  This doesn't mean the archie necessarily did a poor a job, only that the routing is limited.  This is exactly how I feel about Deal, TOC, Burnham and others.  Because the routings may be the only or best choice doesn't to me mean they are good.  

Tobacco Road is a case in point for a course that I don't think is routed particularly well, but maybe just well enough with the combo of interesting architecture to be called great.  Personally, I think it falls just short, but I could accept the argument of greatness.

Ciao

[Lester George]

The only good routing through neiborhoods are usually those that the golf course architect had a reasonable owner where economics did not drive EVERY decision, good terrain, plenty of space and the first dibs on the golf property.  Farmington Country Club (Findlay) comes to mind as well as Kinloch and Ballyhack for me.

Lester  

[Adam Clayman]

Mac, Great is a tough neighborhood.
Pebble Beach is one for sure. Crystal Downs would be another. And as David says, Pasa. Even some places in old Florida have decent courses bordered by housing. One pretty good modern course would be Smeyer's (?) Southern Dunes, in Haines City, behind the wal-mart.  

But there's a difference in the way housing courses get routed. From the above initial examples, there's no question those houses have very little impact on play and each home is distinctly different from the other.  Southern Dunes is not that way, but what makes it pretty good is how compelling the course keeps your mind's attention. Ignoring the repetitive eye sores.

Mike describes perfectly Wildrness ridge in Lincoln. Immaculate conditioning. However, the course routes you through neighborhoods. Popping in and out of holes shoved in between the tracts of uniform housing. For an aficionado, it's a one and done experience.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

I suppose it depends on the definition of "good." I've played any number of courses I considered to be a 4 or 5 that had below average to poor routings. Johnny Miller courses come to mind in this regard, good courses with sometimes terrible routings. Now, I don't think a course can be "great" with a poor routing, although I must agree with many of the posts I have seen on here prior to joining that The Old Course would be said to have a poor routing were it designed identically today; somehow it gets a pass because its 400 years old. But all in all, certainly a course can be "good" with a bad or poor routing, "great is another story" and of course all depends on the individual person.


Michael_Hendren--as a former Navy man, if you can truly "box the compass" without looking at any references, I'll be incredibly impressed (all 32 points).

[Jud_T]

Why exactly does the Old Course have a poor routing?

[Mac Plumart]

Jud...

Isn't it obvious?



No island greens!!  

[Carl Rogers]

Are there any great courses routed through a neighborhood?

Has anyone played Highland Links?  Can you talk about that courses routing?

I have been trying to get many of those that read this web site on the East Coast US to tee it up at Riverfront in Suffolk, VA.  As a development course it is very far under the radar in the VA Course Rankings and I am sure it gets dismissed for it.  It is also a very different course than the other options in a 50 mile radius which may be too far out of the box for some here locally.

[Andy Troeger]

I think poor routing is an interesting thought--we clearly aren't all on the page with that definition as mentioned early in the thread. I've played some good, even REALLY good, courses with semi-walkable or non-walkable routings due to terrain. All of those courses have a number of great holes and I'm ok with that. Engh's built a number of them. Those types of couses do have a ceiling, even for me. There's just a big variance in where that ceiling lies.

If you include a few poor or awkward holes and strange transitions, then I don't think those courses are going to even rise to the "good" level very often. The other holes had better be really strong.

[Mac Plumart]

http://www.riverfrontgolf.com/default.aspx?view=layout

Carl...

It looks very cool.  I've added it to my list.  


EDIT...

I've really been thinking a lot about routing lately.  The bottom line is that it is the journey to architect wants to take you on, right?  Assuming you hit your ball in the general vacinity of the hole, you will walk the property/course along the specific route laid out by the architect.  That route ideally will be interesting, full of great golf shots, flowing, and scenic.  It doesn't neccessarily require specific distances green to tee, does it?  If that walk is interesting, who cares...as long as it isn't outrageous.  In essence, the route IS the journey.  And is the core of the course. 

I bring up Highland Links because it is my understanding that the routing is unique in that it has longer green to tee transitions, but they are well done.

I bring up great neighborhood courses, because if an architect nails that routing (with all the limitations) that has to be a truly fantastic piece of work.

Another curve ball, is a well routed course through a neighborhood and/or on a small piece of property more admirable than a good job on a vast and intersting piece of propery? 

[Sean_A]

Why exactly does the Old Course have a poor routing?

Jud

The narrowness of the property pushes many holes in a row in the same direction.  With wind as a major factor for defense this creates a lack of diversity for long stretches.   I think it is particularly a problem for 2-6 with some similar like blind drives and serious trouble up the right (for all the holes).  When the course finally does start to break the mould for 7-9, the ninth is a weak hole with little to recommend it.  2-6 alone means there is no way TOC is a 10 or even a 9 for me and the 9th takes it down to an 7.   

Ciao     

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mac,

I've hung around, and played at Highlands Links quite a bit. There are some long-ish walks between holes - 1 to 2 (not far, but across a road), 6 to 7 (a bit of a trek, across a highway!), 12 to 13 (one of the prettiest walks, along a stream, in golf), 13 to 14 (simply up a hill), 15 to 16 (another trek, across a highway!) - but you genuinely get the sense that this is so entirely because of the landscape. The layout makes wonderful use of a massive property and a wonderful landscape. Those long-ish walks I just mention occur for no other reasons than that - the landscape gets abrupt in spots and it's a huge canvas. And, most of the other holes are steps from the previous greens. Mr. Thompson's routing does work very well.

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Agree that the 9th is a bit light given today's equipment. I recall really enjoying the contours on 2.  As a 10 in the CG, I guess at least 1 poster here would disagree with you. Either that or you can in fact have a great course with a mediocre routing.

[Kalen Braley]

To follow up on Seans comments:

1) Can it be considered a good routing when almost every hole has OB to the right.
2) Includes only 2 par 3s and 2 par 5s
3)  Several blind shots that can be dangerous to others because the safe shot is almost always in the direction of the opposing hole.
4)  Crossing holes where play is delayed waiting for the cross traffic

[Mac Plumart]

Kalen...

It sounds almost as bad as Cypress.   

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mac,

You were talking about Highland Links in MA, weren't you?!

Whoops. Any time one of us Canadians sees "Highland Links" our passion gets the best of us 

[Jud_T]

As far as wind, seems to me the weather changes so frequently that sequential holes in the same direction aren't such a problem.  And I kind of enjoy the crossovers, guys watching you pull a club adding to the pressure.