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Jud_T

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2011, 09:25:07 AM »


What does matter is your idea of how likely you are to make your putt and your idea of how likely the opponent is to miss.


Brent,

What is this if not your assessment of the probabilities of the given situation?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:27:23 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim_Coleman

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2011, 09:32:36 AM »
    There's a lot of nice chandeliers in Vegas paid for by people who don't think the odds apply to them.

Brent Hutto

Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2011, 09:43:23 AM »
Jud,

As I am at pains to remind people every day in my line of work, reality and a person's idea of reality are related but quite separate entities. And one much always keep in mind which is operating in a given situation.

If I step out in front of a speeding bus at lunch time, what matters at that moment is reality. It hits me or doesn't. My injuries are fatal or not. It hits me square-on or just clips my leg.

If I'm deciding whether to cross the street against the light, reality is not in play. I am not in that moment doing a decades-long scientific investigation of the probabilities associate with a bus coming or not, how fast it is moving, how good I am at dodging if it does. I am making that decision based on the version of "reality" that exists in my at that moment in time. And our personal "reality" for most things is highly unstable across varied situations.

If I'm late to a meeting, walking fast and still thinking about the presentation I just left which pissed me off by running a half-hour long I absolutely guarantee you I will assess the probability of a bus hitting me while crossing against the light as lower than if I'm killing time on my lunch hour and perfectly relaxed. It's human nature for emotional and biochemical arousal states to influence our perception of the odds of various outcomes. Unavoidable, really. Although in certain contexts people can discipline themselves to take such factors into account and not go too far astray.

The decision about putting or picking up on the last hole of a tight match is totally based on subjective "reality" perceptions. There is no information available during a speculative bull session to inform an estimate of "the right decision". The whole thing is totally dependent on factors that can only be assessed while you're standing on that green at that moment. And that's not a time when Dave Pelz is available to come do a study, any decision reached is gong to be subject to the vagaries of the mental, emotional and arousal state of the players involved.

Which is why it's perfectly sensible to stick to general principles and not engage in obviousness arguments predicated on understanding the scientific probabilities that obtain. Because they don't. A general principle that seems quite defensible for golfers is not to forgo attempting a putt which will will the match. I personally have a hard time seeing any argument against that which would be persuasive as a general principle. And I reject references to objective probability charts are irrelevant.

Jim C,

The whole point of Vegas' existence is that the games are contrived such that there is no conceivable situation in which the odds favor the player. Me and you having a putting contest is not analogous to me and you each pulling a slot machine lever.

If Dave Pelz draw a graph of the likelihood of a 15-handicapper making a first putt under such and such specified conditions, that is a post hoc description of a bunch of observations in which all manner of things are assumed to "average out". If Dave Pelz draws a graph of how likely the next coin flip is to come up heads, that is probabilistic in a way that the Dave Pelz putting data is not. The odds are exactly 50/50 with each toss, they aren't 10/90 sometimes and 80/20 other times but if you flip enough you can get an average number. There is a probabilistic component to putting but it is rather small in importance compared to the non-random factors at play. Vegas is constructed by giving the appearance that non-random factors are much more (relatively) important than they are while assuring that the probabilistic effects in fact dominate the outcome.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:51:10 AM by Brent Hutto »

Jim_Coleman

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2011, 09:49:55 AM »
Brent:  I've never seen you putt, but I am quite confident I would want odds from you if we were to have a contest.  And that's not based on how I'm feeling at a given moment.

Brent Hutto

Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2011, 09:52:44 AM »
Well Jim, as my late father used to say...people in hell want ice water.  ;) No odds for you!

And besides, if it's the 18th hole I'll be leaving all my 25-footers four feet short by then anyway. I wasn't kidding when I said I know from chickenshit...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:56:47 AM by Brent Hutto »

Jud_T

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2011, 09:55:54 AM »
Brent,

If a lifetime .300 hitter with a 10 year pro career under his belt who isn't nursing injuries or just got divorced etc. has just gone 0 for his last 20 at bats, what do you think the odds of him getting a hit in his next at bat are?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2011, 09:59:19 AM »
Brent,

If a lifetime .300 hitter with a 10 year pro career under his belt who isn't nursing injuries or just got divorced etc. has just gone 0 for his last 20 at bats, what do you think the odds of him getting a hit in his next at bat are?

Two possibilities. Either his oh-fer is just a bad streak and his changes are still right around .300 or else something I don't know about is going on and he isn't a .300 hitter at the moment. If you stipulate that there's nothing going on then his probability of a "hit" is still .300, or at least that's the best guess. The problem with betting on sports is you never really know for sure that nothing's going on and those oh-fer streaks start making you wonder!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2011, 10:03:05 AM »
Exactly.  The point is that in a long enough series you expect a streak of 0-20 or 8 hits in a row etc.   So you expect a guy to make 3 20-footers in a row or miss 50 in a row at some point in his life, but aside from adjusting the probabilities up or down for the pressure of the situation, if he's 1 in 20 then he's got exactly a 5% chance of draining it...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2011, 10:15:41 AM »
if he's 1 in 20 then he's got exactly a 5% chance of draining it...

Which is exactly why I'm putting it.... ;D
We're not doing it 20 times-just once

and my opponent is only doing it once as well :o
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Brightly

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2011, 10:32:10 AM »
Just for the sake of argumenet, there is a little more involved than just showing the line. The opponent with the 20 footer is prepared for a "tempo" which includes reading the green while Jim sets up, watching the 25 footer to learn break and PACE, then going through his normal pre-putt routine. If Jim walks over and simply picks up his marker, he will have startled the opponent a bit, and the opponent is now suddenly "on the clock", and will spend the next few seconds re-grouping rather than a normal pre-putt routine. It is gamesmanship, but it is a factor.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2011, 10:54:01 AM »
What's the likelihood of a three-putt from either spot?

Brent Hutto

Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2011, 10:59:56 AM »
What's the likelihood of a three-putt from either spot?


And the key word is "spot". Saying it's 25 feet or whatever does not much inform the question of three-putting. On a one-off putt you have to worry about all the stuff Dave Pelz's graph averages out.

I can think of some 25-footers to fairly routine hole locations at my home course where three-putt chances are definitely in play. Of course if your four-ball partner is in the hole so your second putt is covered you are guaranteed not to three-putt!

Carl Nichols

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2011, 01:11:42 PM »
What's the likelihood of a three-putt from either spot?


The original post said that Player A's partner was already in for par, so worrying about a three putt for that team was irrelevant.  I bet the same was true for the other team, although the post doesn't say that for sure. 

George Pazin

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2011, 02:08:39 PM »
   If you really believe that seeing the line is of no (or little) help, then of course you should putt.  I think you're kidding yourself.  Apparently, so does Nick Faldo and pretty much every analyst.  I suspect a telecast doesn't go by when the line, "he got a good read of that putt" isn't uttered.

I remember watching one of those silly season skills challenges one afternoon (hey, sue me, I was working... :)). It was amazing how few pros did not learn enough to bury the long putt. I don't see how anyone short of a top pro putter would learn enough to increase his odds significantly on a twenty footer. Of course, Brad Faxon DID nail the long putt after watching a few others, but I'm assuming you're not playing against him.

At any rate, there are some erroneous thoughts floating around on this thread. The biggest one is confusing the odds on sinking a single putt with taking X number of shots at it. Just because a single putt is 25:1, it doesn't mean you should make 1 in 25 if you take 25 from the spot. There is a lot of learning involved with each putt. Just like the guy seeing your line learns.

I'm definitely putting, but then again, I enjoy putting. I'd rather go down swinging.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2011, 02:19:30 PM »
   If you really believe that seeing the line is of no (or little) help, then of course you should putt.  I think you're kidding yourself.  Apparently, so does Nick Faldo and pretty much every analyst.  I suspect a telecast doesn't go by when the line, "he got a good read of that putt" isn't uttered.

At any rate, there are some erroneous thoughts floating around on this thread. The biggest one is confusing the odds on sinking a single putt with taking X number of shots at it. Just because a single putt is 25:1, it doesn't mean you should make 1 in 25 if you take 25 from the spot. There is a lot of learning involved with each putt. Just like the guy seeing your line learns.


Obviously if the odds are 1/25 that means for any random 20 footer of equal difficulty, not 25 consecutive attempts at the same putt...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Alan Gard

Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2011, 01:35:07 PM »
"jam it in hole with pace...Wouldn't you think odds of making 25' putt go up if you know you don't have to 2-putt? 

Bill Brightly

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Re: O.T. Math Question Re: Better Ball Tactics
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2011, 02:17:14 PM »
"jam it in hole with pace...Wouldn't you think odds of making 25' putt go up if you know you don't have to 2-putt? 

Trying to "jam it in" only makes your odds go down...you lose the helpful effects of gravity the harder you hit it. It does take away a little from helping the opponent see the exact line.