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Brent Hutto

Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 09:28:54 AM »
I've paid for my 2011 golf travel, but 2012 is looking less likely......:(

I'm a year ahead of you, buddy. I was going to take 2010 off but decided to squeeze in a trip anyway. So now 2011 is a definite no-go. Hopefully I'll be able to go to England in 2012 but if airfares and exchange rate were to keep getting less favorable that would be out the window, too. And I'm afraid that looks quite likely at this juncture.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2011, 09:50:48 AM »
I believe you will see a reduction in green fees and less manicuring from the maintenance staff, but I doubt we will see many close down.
No one is building houses right now so I doubt we will see many courses bought by developers.
 
Some of the struggling properties will be picked up by more savvy operators who will be happy with a small return, or by guys like me who may just be buying a job and making a living doing what they love to do. Others will hang on and try to win customers by "pimping" out their courses and handing out lemon-scented towels, but they had better have a good golf course and great demographics.
The stalwarts will be fine as most have long paid off their debts, unless they got swayed into a large renovation or new clubhouse in the last few years. That could be a problem for some.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2011, 09:57:35 AM »
Any course that charges over $120 in greens fees is probably overcharging.  I paid that much to play at this year's British Open venue.  Is Bulle Rock better than Sandwich.  I DOUBT IT.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2011, 10:05:27 AM »
To be fair, John, Sandwich's summer fee equates roughly to US$230 for 18 holes or $US300 for a day ticket.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2011, 12:39:43 PM »
JNC - To me, Beechtree was a much better golf course than Bulle Rock at half the price.

Alan Gard

Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2011, 01:06:32 PM »
Good case study for a business class.  Lots of situation-unique factors will contribute. Courses with competitive advantages and strong management will survive. Others won't. Business Darwinism.  Whole economics of situation is cause of zero growth in golf (despite more people). No easy answers, though.  Still seems like some money in the golf equipment industry.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2011, 01:24:12 PM »

Any course that charges over $120 in greens fees is probably overcharging.  I paid that much to play at this year's British Open venue. 


I'm not sure what this means.  Are courses that charge more than $120 wildly overprofitable?  If the business model requires this sort of pricing should the course not have been built in the first place?

My view of these high end public courses is that they represent a middle groung between private membership, which generallly costs a lot more per round than $120, and publicly operated courses which are nominally less expensiive but (at least where I live) have large hidden costs (slow play, poor conditioning, indifferent architecture). 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2011, 03:33:08 PM »
As in the commercial and residential real estate markets, each area is it's own unique market.  I'd gladly play Sandwich every weekend for $120, however it would take me approximately 24 hours door to door and a bit of airfare to do it...Pac Dunes charges $225/round peak rate and they are not overcharging.  The Glen Club down the road from me charges $180 peak and they are...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2011, 03:58:03 PM »

Any course that charges over $120 in greens fees is probably overcharging.  I paid that much to play at this year's British Open venue. 


I'm not sure what this means.  Are courses that charge more than $120 wildly overprofitable?  If the business model requires this sort of pricing should the course not have been built in the first place?

My view of these high end public courses is that they represent a middle groung between private membership, which generallly costs a lot more per round than $120, and publicly operated courses which are nominally less expensiive but (at least where I live) have large hidden costs (slow play, poor conditioning, indifferent architecture). 

My comment was based more on the quality of the golf course rather than a pricing model.  Nearly all public courses that charge more than $120 are not good enough to host a major championship any time soon.  Thus, they are charging too much for an inferior service.  Why would I pay $50 for a hamburger if I can get lobster for $20?  I don't really care how much it costs to make the hamburger.

Scott, you are correct about the high season rates, and I would not play Sandwich at those prices.  Of course, the day I played it was 55F with bright sunshine and a gentle breeze, so just about an ideal links day.  Hard to beat that value.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2011, 04:17:09 PM »
Great demographics is better than a great golf course. You need to base your figures and pricing on about 30,000 rounds per year. You need to spend an amount on the course equivilant to 25,000 rounds and you need to break even on the F & B.

I said a couple of years back the better courses will suffer most, they have further to fall and their price may be out of the range for one member of that prospective 4 ball that wanted to play, that results in that 4 ball going to a cheaper option.

£200 or $300 is an outrageous sum of money for a round of golf and whilst it may be a great experience, it can only be done in wealthy times. £60 or $100 is the winning number for multiple play IMO.

I would say in the UK we are past the worst now, from my experience we are good on renewals, forward group bookings and the bar take is at record levels. I have not heard of many closures though almost ALL UK CLUBS have membership vacancy and perhaps are operating at say 90% efficency......KEEPING STAFFING LEVELS LEAN is the best way to stay clean.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2011, 04:28:34 PM »


I said a couple of years back the better courses will suffer most, they have further to fall and their price may be out of the range for one member of that prospective 4 ball that wanted to play, that results in that 4 ball going to a cheaper option.



This is a very good point and one that will have even more serious consequences for privates,IMO.When a member of a regular group has to leave a club,the result will be just as likely that all of them will consider leaving.A lot of guys who can still afford a private club don't need much convincing that there are cheaper options.This kind of domino effect would be devastating.

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2011, 09:58:46 PM »
Dan, I can only imagine how heart breaking that is seeing your club come to the end like that.  The T-U had a nice reprint of your letter to members.  What a shame.


I busted my butt to keep it alive.  I negotiated the bank down from almost the almost 4 million we owed down to 1.3 million but out of 248 members I only got 50 of them to commit to putting up the funds.  In the end the members didn't care enough about their own club.  I am sure this is not an isolated case but it could have been saved.  Operating debt free would have provided a great opportunity to turn the place around.  A shame as it survived from 1927 to last year.

One of the additional  problems though was despite the staggering debt load for a club of it's type the clubhouse, pro shop and pool facilities were badly in need of an upgrade.  Golf course had new watering system, lots of drainage and two newly redesigned holes.  Despite some issue with the greens last summer due to years of skimping on maintainence the course was in great shape.

Dan
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 10:08:12 PM by Dan Byrnes »

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2011, 11:33:30 PM »
Dan,

If it's not violating discretion or confidentiality, how was it that 4 million was owed?  Even at the superb negotiation rate you secured (1.3mil) that would've been about $5000 for each of the 248 or $27,000 for the 50 who pledged funds - a heck of a lot of money for a large sample or the smaller sample of the latter group.

In the end (sale? current foreclosure? abandonment?) did the debt holders lose, break even, or realize a profit?

I apologize if you have answered these inquiries in a previous post.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2011, 05:02:38 PM »
Dan,

If it's not violating discretion or confidentiality, how was it that 4 million was owed?  Even at the superb negotiation rate you secured (1.3mil) that would've been about $5000 for each of the 248 or $27,000 for the 50 who pledged funds - a heck of a lot of money for a large sample or the smaller sample of the latter group.

In the end (sale? current foreclosure? abandonment?) did the debt holders lose, break even, or realize a profit?

I apologize if you have answered these inquiries in a previous post.

cheers

vk

Over the years the club board, who operated the course without a serious general manager, borrowed money through banks for mortgages, second mortgages lines of credit, these were expanded as operating revenue fell and it became a  mess.  Bank of America pretty much took over all of the mortgages 1st and 2nd, equipment lines, lines of credit.  This was in 2007 so the peak of easy lending, it wouldn't be allowed to happen again in todays environment.

As things started to become unglued and members became aware of the debt levels and than the economy fell apart the membership cratered from 300 ish to 200 ish.  I took over and negotiated the bank to interest only and grew the membership back to 250ish  while I worked on trying to turn the place around and get the bank to let us buy the debt out at a significant discount.  Unfortunately, with last summer's weather the club suffered some condition issues with 4 the greens due to a long term lack of proper maintenance that left to much thatch and a weak route structure.  Really it was about to much of the revenue going to principal and interest and the leadership not being knowledgeable enough or finding folks who were. That was the death blow.

I was able to get the bank to take 1.3 million to settle the 4 million we owed them but it was really too late. 

I thought it was doable as the club operating debt free would have allowed a 1k dues reduction and still allowed for money for rehab of the facilities.  No doubt the 5k each was no trivial(but they would be even after 5 years and own part of a valuable asset) but there were others willing to go 100k but in the end not enough to ensure the clubs survival.  The bank sold the mortgage note via an auction for 1.575 million in the end. 

Between the members and the auction I worked with several buyers including the town the course it in to try and keep it alive but many couldn't grasp the fact they were just buying the mortgage note with an agreement with the club to provide the deed in lieu of foreclosure.  Our fear was a developer would come in and it would become a housing development.  The sad state of housing really helped that not happen.

The auction has brought in a new group of operators who own 3 other courses in the North East ands they opened the facility as a semi private but even for them the process took to long and they have retained only 70 of the original members with the rest moving to other private clubs or not joining anywhere.  One of the local clubs attracted about 80 members and another 40 scattered to other local clubs.  There are too many private clubs in my area and like everywhere else most are down on membership.

So in the end the bank took a beating and the new owners got an attractive asset at a nice price.

Here is the clubs website if anyone is interested.

http://www.normanside.com/

Feel free to ask questions.  It was a huger learning experience for me.

Dan


Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2011, 08:30:42 AM »
Dan, since you asked us to ask, how much of the club's trouble could be attributed to the fact that Nomanside was adjacent to a recently renovated Emmet Devereux (?) public golf course which seems to be a good, well maintained layout that only charges a buck a hole?

On an aside, I see that the 2nd mid-tier club and 3rd course in the Milwaukee/Southern Wisconsin area (Mequin CC) is for sale in as many months, is for sale. One just recently sold.
Coasting is a downhill process

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2011, 09:07:05 AM »
Dan, since you asked us to ask, how much of the club's trouble could be attributed to the fact that Nomanside was adjacent to a recently renovated Emmet Devereux (?) public golf course which seems to be a good, well maintained layout that only charges a buck a hole?

On an aside, I see that the 2nd mid-tier club and 3rd course in the Milwaukee/Southern Wisconsin area (Mequin CC) is for sale in as many months, is for sale. One just recently sold.

Don't personally think that was much of a factor.  Not many members who left the club over the years went there instead.  That course is very busy we city residents and leafues.  While it is separated by Normanside by a small creek it's actually a 10 minute drive.  The main factors really in my opinion were years of mismanagement where to much debt was accumulated and the general economy, and private club demographics in general. 

In my opinion had it not been mismanaged it would be one of the stronger clubs.  It has a better location than many of the others with easy access to the city of Albany and the most convenient of for then suburbs south of Albany.  Centrally located in one of the most affluent suburbs.

It really is a matter of only the strong will survive.

Dan

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2011, 09:13:53 AM »
It might be a matter of the well located surviving, not the strong.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2011, 09:42:19 AM »
It might be a matter of the well located surviving, not the strong.

Certainly a factor but in the Albany area one could argue none of the clubs are inconvenient.  The approximately 15 mile radius of the city is home to the private clubs:

Shaker Ridge
Schuyer Meadows
Wolferts Roost
Normanside
Colonie
Albany
PineHaven
Mohawk
Edison
Troy
Van Shaick


Dan


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2011, 09:51:26 AM »
Dan,

I guess well located could stretch the meaning to "not located by 15 other similar courses".

Seriously, most of the courses that have closed have been country courses, ma and pa. 

In oversupplied areas (almost everywhere) play is down, maintenance deferred, service slashed, rates dropped, but the ones with the least debt survive.  Or the ones in housing where we cannot do much else with the land.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2011, 09:54:52 AM »
Dan, from your point of view, what do you feel were some of the mis-steps along the way.  I know no one could foresee the depths of what has come to pass but Albany is a State Capital city with University(s).  Those factors should skew the workforce to one that is more affluent and stable. Was it a spend now on Wants rather than needs?  Was too much emphasis placed on marginal ammenties (pool, tennis,fine dining) and not on the main asset - the golf course? ETC.
BTW, what's up with the walk between 12 & 13? especially with both being Par 3's?  Had anyone ever suggested changing this or was it a non-issue?

Thanks for being so candid. I think the more we can learn from these kind of situations, the less apt we are to repeat them.
Coasting is a downhill process

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2011, 11:38:19 AM »
Dan, from your point of view, what do you feel were some of the mis-steps along the way.  I know no one could foresee the depths of what has come to pass but Albany is a State Capital city with University(s).  Those factors should skew the workforce to one that is more affluent and stable. Was it a spend now on Wants rather than needs?  Was too much emphasis placed on marginal ammenties (pool, tennis,fine dining) and not on the main asset - the golf course? ETC.
BTW, what's up with the walk between 12 & 13? especially with both being Par 3's?  Had anyone ever suggested changing this or was it a non-issue?

Thanks for being so candid. I think the more we can learn from these kind of situations, the less apt we are to repeat them.

The back to back par 3's is strange.  There has been some thought about making one of them a drivable par 4, but it was not a priority expense.  Also 13 the best location to do so has some topography issues that make such a move difficult. The reason for the back to back par 3's is the old clubhouse was originally off what is now 7 very close to 13.  When it burned down years ago it was moved to its present location.  Same reason that 9 and 10 end up back to back par 5's.

The place certainly wasn't going to be a architectural gem but it had a nice friendly non stuffy vibe and was a fun place.

The downfall in my opinion started years ago.  When they added banquet space but didn't execute the business plan needed to pay off the investment.  That debt was refinanced several times but no plan was implemented to eliminate it during the time the club was flourishing and had wait lists.  After that it was a finance everything to keep the present costs down, typically clubs are run by older members who won't be around to have to pay the piper but can enjoy the benefits.  That led to high interest costs and debt took over to much of the dues so building and such were not properly updated and refreshed and the golf course skimped on aerations, quality sand, while it received a new needed million dollar water system, had new tees and redesigned holes (which were nice but not necessary) and lots of drainage and a new maintenance  facility.  All debt financed.

People thought the club was doing fine when you had 300 plus with 70 paying the debt and 230 the operations but the problems were already lurking unnoticed.  While the economic problems were hard to predict, when that hit membership fell to 230 total members the debt was too much to bare,  Typically clubs with huge debt are in mint condition as it is typically the build it and they will come plan that fails.  Normanside is more unique as more than 1/2 the debt was not recent improvements but old stuff and income short falls continually rolled over.

When I got in charge I found out the restaurant and banquet facilities had prime costs (food and labor) of above 80% when the appropriate amount is 60% ish. So  1.2 million plus in sales we had 240k of mismanagement, which if it had been addressed years ago would have made all the difference in the end.

The true mistake was running the club with a volunteer management that changed regularly, didn't have the expertise and had their own views of what need to be done.  In my opinion a long range plan and a quality general manager would have provided a different result.

Sadly the club was making big strides in attracting the 40 something family crowd and had it been able to buy the debt itself when the bank provided the opportunity could have had a pretty bright future.

Happy to share my thoughts in case it helps some one else.  It was a big learning experience for me as was more a GM than a President of the club.

Dan
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:45:12 AM by Dan Byrnes »

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Long Will the High End Public Courses Last?
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2011, 02:31:07 PM »
THANKS DAN.  THAT LAST POST SHOULD BE A CAUTIONARY STICKY THREAD.  IT'S A TALE I'VE SEEN HAPPEN OVER AND OVER.  AND IT USUALLY BEGINS WITH OR IN THE CLUBHOUSE.

ALSO A REASON I'M A FIRM BELIEVER IN A NON-VOTING SUPER-SENIOR MEMBER CLASS.  REDUCED DUES, NO ASSESSMENTS, NO VOTING.  KEEPS THE CAN FROM GETTING KICKED DOWN THE STREET.

ISN'T IT STRANGE HOW WASHINGTON AND STATE PENSION FUNDS ARE EXPERIENCING THE EXACT SAME SITUATION YOU DISCRIBE/
Coasting is a downhill process

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