Augusta National 7, 14 and 17

[JR Potts]

Are these holes too similar?

All play the same distance, all play the same direction and all holes seem to play the same.  Sans the Eisenhower tree on 17 and the lack of bunkers on 14, what really distinguishes these holes?

Many courses get panned for having too many similar holes....why does Augusta National get a pass for 7, 14 and 17?  And better yet, what should be done, if anything, to distinguish these holes from one another?


[Sorry, I originally had a much longer and more thoughful post but it has since vanished into the Internet abyss]

[Tom_Doak]

Those holes were not even remotely similar when the course was built, or even twenty years ago for that matter.

None of them were tight off the tee to begin with.  The Eisenhower tree exerted its influence first; the Hootie trees have made their presence felt on #7 recently, and the Hootie rough is a factor on #14, which it didn't used to be.

The greens of the three holes are still very different, though, so I don't think they are all that similar apart from length.  And it's hard to criticize holes as being similar in length when everything under 440 is a driver-wedge for the big boys.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ryan,

I was at Augusta National last week (for the first time since 1997). Other than perhaps the "back tee" yardage and general direction of play, there is NOTHING similar about holes 7, 14 and 17. As Tom mentions, the greens at these holes are as diverse as can be; making tee shot demands, approach and recovery play equally varied.

Honestly

[JR Potts]

Then I guess I'm the idiot.  Isn't the first time and won't be the first time.

That said, outside of the Ike tree and two greenside bunkers on 17, I still can't visualize the difference between 14 and 17.

[Tom ORourke]

These holes were all changed somewhat in the recent renovations. 14 not so much, but the other two were. My question is what would other architects have done if they were the ones called in to make those changes? What would Stranz have done? Nicklaus? Dye? C&C? Any of our guys who post here? Not just to these 3 holes but overall changes. The greens group called you in, you would have had to do something. What would anyone have done that would have been better than what is there now? What changes would they have made then? And no, I don't think Pete Dye would have embedded railroad ties on #12.

[Ken Fry]

Ryan,

#14 requires a very difficult tee shot climbing uphill quite steeply with a pronounced right to left ball flight.  Once that's completed, players are confronted with an absolute roller coaster ride on the green.  Greens on hole 5 and 14 have to be seen in person.  Both outstanding.

#17 is uphill but basically a straight tee shot.  Eisenhower tree is much closer to the tee than most people think and also not nearly as tall.  A massive false front guards the entrance to the 14th green where 17 has the large fronting bunker.  Beyond the holes going the same general direction, not much is similar in my opinion.

I won't even get into the abysmal changes to #7.  Just, plain, awful....  A wonderful green complex in search of a deserving compliment of a tee and playing corridor....

Ken

[Matthew Sander]

I think 14 is quite unique and a very underrated hole on the course. There's the awkward right to left drive with the reverse sloped fairway. The green is something to behold. I've written it on here before, but when I first caught a view of it in person I finally realized why I saw so many balls do so many strange things while watching the Masters on TV.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan,

# 7 is a downhill tee shot, # 14 is slightly uphill and # 17 is uphill.

# 7 green is elevated and totally protected in front, # 14 is unprotected in front, slightly uphill and # 17 is partially protected in front.

As others have mentioned, the greens are quite unique on each hole.

And, from the Members tees, the distances vary more than from the Masters tees

[jeffwarne]

Then I guess I'm the idiot.  Isn't the first time and won't be the first time.

That said, outside of the Ike tree and two greenside bunkers on 17, I still can't visualize the difference between 14 and 17.

Ryan,
7 is a tight level, then downhill drive, played to a substantially uphill green sloped toward the player a LOT and surrounded by bunkers

14(which has no bunkers) is a dogleg left, with the slope of the fairway running away to the right-the green is one of the most unusual in golf with the front of the green unpinnable, the right side running away from the player and the left side sloping tons froml eft to right

17 is an uphill drive, over the Eisenhour tree and now quite tight from additional pines on both sides, the second shot is level (uphill if a short drive)played to another difficult green which has elevated portions that fall off severely to the right and bunkered short and left

Other than that they are exactly the same.....

Tom Doak,
7 has had pines added, but it was always considered a tight hole in my master's experience (38 years)
It probably played as tight with less trees and no rough as the ball tended to run right into the woods.
Many players used to hit irons for that reason and were basically driving it in the same places they are now.
After watching this year's tournament, I'm not convinced 7 isn't a pretty good hole (I previously thought they should've left it short)
3 is nearly a driveable par 4 now (I saw Bubba hit it 10 feet short on Saturday) and less people lay up there than used to now that the bunkers are carriable by many/most in the field.

The people running The Masters have had to react to the USGA's ineptitude.
If the organizations were reversed, I doubt all major championship venues would have to be reworked every time they host.

Really shocking to me how far those guys carry the ball now as this was the first time it's been really warm at ANGC in awhile and I watched a lot of the young bombers.
They'd be driving it greenside on the old 7 and old 17

[Chip Gaskins]

the 14th green is like dropping a marble in your bath tub....while the 7th green is like dropping a marble on the hood of your car (with the exception of the very small spot on the front left).  the 17th green breaks the laws of physics on the upper right shelf where you can see your ball break up the hill.   you really need a strong drink when you putt on these hallowed surfaces....

[Ken Fry]

Tom Doak,
7 has had pines added, but it was always considered a tight hole in my master's experience (38 years)
It probably played as tight with less trees and no rough as the ball tended to run right into the woods.
Many players used to hit irons for that reason and were basically driving it in the same places they are now.
After watching this year's tournament, I'm not convinced 7 isn't a pretty good hole (I previously thought they should've left it short)
3 is nearly a driveable par 4 now (I saw Bubba hit it 10 feet short on Saturday) and less people lay up there than used to now that the bunkers are carriable by many/most in the field.

Jeff,

I was on the tee Saturday when Bubba hit that drive on #3.  He carried it OVER the trees on the right of the fairway.  We couldn't see where it eventually ended up but assumed it was pretty good.  Bubba hits his drives on a whole different level than most other players....

Ken

[jeffwarne]

Tom Doak,
7 has had pines added, but it was always considered a tight hole in my master's experience (38 years)
It probably played as tight with less trees and no rough as the ball tended to run right into the woods.
Many players used to hit irons for that reason and were basically driving it in the same places they are now.
After watching this year's tournament, I'm not convinced 7 isn't a pretty good hole (I previously thought they should've left it short)
3 is nearly a driveable par 4 now (I saw Bubba hit it 10 feet short on Saturday) and less people lay up there than used to now that the bunkers are carriable by many/most in the field.

Jeff,

I was on the tee Saturday when Bubba hit that drive on #3.  He carried it OVER the trees on the right of the fairway.  We couldn't see where it eventually ended up but assumed it was pretty good.  Bubba hits his drives on a whole different level than most other players....

Ken

Ken,
It went right over me in the right woods, and barely rolled at all because of the topography.
Any further left and it rolls backwards 40 yards to where he made double friday after laying up off the tee into the bunker.

Daly was the first guy I ever saw hit driver there.
Now many do and it may be a better hole due to technology.
Which is why I see no point in 7 being short again

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

What's interesting about your comment is that this year so many golfers, announcers and sportscasters have mentioned that the I&B and especially the ball, are out of control.

I think it might have been Gary Player, but someone said that as soon as a Michael Jordan or Shaq like athlete starts playing golf, they'll be hitting the ball 400 yards, ruining the intent of the architecture.

Others decried the expansionist movement with respect to lengthening holes to meet the demand brought about by hi-tech.

Lengthening courses is clearly not the answer.

The distances these fellow hit the ball, "under the gun" in major tournaments is mind boggling.

I had always hoped that AGNC would introduce a competition ball, one with Increased spin rates and/or a dialed back ball.

You saw it first hand.

It's out of control.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan,

From the members tees, # 7 plays at 330, # 14 plays at 380 and # 17 plays at 370.

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