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Mark McKeever

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2011, 01:52:48 PM »
Tumblebrook was pretty neat.  I will have to head back there with a camera at some point.  Its a great example of a course that didn't get "treed in" over the years.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Dan Grossman

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2011, 05:28:52 PM »
I wanted to bring back the bunkerless greens thread for a couple more observations.

Three of my new favorite bunkerless greens are 16 at Merion (West) and 4 and 5 at Tumblebrook, a very obscure and very bare-bones Ross nine-holer in Saucon Township.  Each of these greens has a steep falloff on at least one side of the green, meaning a shot missed on that side will run well away from the green and leave an exceedingly difficult recovery.  Many of my favorite bunkerless greens (3 at The Ocean Course, 6 at Deal, Foxy) have this sort of feature.  Do bunkerless greens need to be pushed up to be effective?  Will a lay-of-the-land bunkerless green lack for defenses.?

JNC - Interesting question. 

Of the two bunkerless holes that I thought of, Rustic Canyon #9 and Rustic Canyon #16, only one of them is pushed up (sort of).  #16 has steep slopes (and short grass) behind and to the left of the green, creating very difficult recoveries and also creating very difficult approaches (to try to avoid the recoveries). 

#9 at Rustic Canyon is a different animal, however, as it is more of a "lay of the land" green.  That said, the internal contours are significant and there are distinct sections and tiers to the green.  As such, if you try to hit the green in two (its a medium length par 5), it is important to leave the ball in the appropriate spot for the pin position.  If the pin is front left, you don't want to miss on the right side of the green as you will have an extremely difficult up and down.

Ed Oden

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2011, 12:43:28 AM »
Do bunkerless greens need to be pushed up to be effective?  Will a lay-of-the-land bunkerless green lack for defenses.?

Nope...

Mark McKeever

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2011, 09:43:30 AM »
Ed,

What are the defenses of this green pictured at DC?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

jonathan_becker

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2011, 10:03:06 AM »
Ed,

What are the defenses of this green pictured at DC?

Mark

There are multiple holes at DC where if you miss the green your ball can easily kick or feed into the wooded areas.  Don't miss long in the above photo!

Mark McKeever

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2011, 10:15:02 AM »
Thanks JB!  I wasnt sure if there was anything we were missing if the photo was zoomed out more.


Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

jonathan_becker

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2011, 10:23:21 AM »
Thanks JB!  I wasnt sure if there was anything we were missing if the photo was zoomed out more.


Mark

Mark,

Check out my DC photo on page 1 of this thread.  Long or an overhooked approach doesn't leave much room for recovery!

Brett Morris

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2011, 06:55:56 PM »
4 at Shoal Creek.



Ed Oden

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2011, 11:28:00 PM »
Ed,

What are the defenses of this green pictured at DC?

Mark

Mark, I will add to what Jonathan already posted.  First of all, this is a long, tough par 4 (477 yards from the tips and 459 from regular mens tees) over rolling terrain with a severely canted fairway.  Dormie Club doesn't list handicaps on their cards, but I'd be surprised if this isn't #1.  This hole doesn't need a boldly defended green.  It is difficult enough as is.  In fact, I would argue that bold defenses wouldn't fit here.  Rather, for me the tranquility of the green provides a perfect juxtaposition to the severity of the rest of the hole.  That's not to say that the green is defenseless.  Here is the view of the approach after an ideal tee shot...



With the firm and fast conditions present at Dormie, it takes nothing to run off to the left or long into the gunch, particularly when you consider most approaches are with a long iron or more.  So the miss is to the right.  But that leaves a devilish chip or putt down the slope.  And the green itself, in addition to severely sloping from right to left, also has a bunch of micro contours that make it particularly difficult to read.  Really good design in my opinion.

Ed Oden

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2011, 11:40:08 PM »
Another low lying bunkerless green I really like is the 13th at Charlotte CC...



Like #8 at Dormie, this is at the end of a long, difficult par 4.  So I think it fits well with the hole's design.  But it also has a creek running 20 yards or so in front of the green and some contour mounds around the periphery which add to the challenge.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2011, 10:13:05 AM »
So is it safe to say a bunkerless green makes more sense on a longer, more challenging hole?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2011, 09:46:57 AM »
So is it safe to say a bunkerless green makes more sense on a longer, more challenging hole?

Mark

Mark

Not necessarily - the 3rd at Royal Adelaide is a very short P4.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2011, 10:01:32 AM »
So is it safe to say a bunkerless green makes more sense on a longer, more challenging hole?

Mark

I don't think so.  6 at Deal is my favorite bunkerless green, and it works beautifully on a short par four.  The pushed up green and the acres of short grass around the green make for a tremendous challenge.  Gravity golf!

3 at the Ocean Course is another short par four that is also bunkerless at the green.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

jonathan_becker

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2011, 10:20:55 AM »
JNC,

With the approach on 3 at kiawah, considering the wind, and considering all of the falloffs including deep, it's easily one of the toughest bunkerless green approachs i've ever faced.  And it's with a wedge!

Brent Hutto

Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2011, 10:41:05 AM »
JNC,

With the approach on 3 at kiawah, considering the wind, and considering all of the falloffs including deep, it's easily one of the toughest bunkerless green approachs i've ever faced.  And it's with a wedge!

It's real fun with a 7-iron which I've had in there on two out of my three plays. One of those times I hit a beautifully flighted, slightly less than full 7-iron. It even made a slight ball mark and had maybe 6-8 paces of roll-out room. Must have needed 9 because the next shot was a tricky little chip shot.  :P

Tom ORourke

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2011, 11:07:44 AM »
I am a member at Woodside Plantation in Aiken, S.C. We have a few courses there, one by Bob Cupp. He has a few bunkerless greens there. Not necessarliy long or short holes, but both. These greens tend to be elevated, one with a false front, all with some mounding around them that makes for some very interesting pitches and lobs. It does look a litlle bare at first, but often a bunker is a good place to be, rather than running down an incline into a more difficult position.

Tim Bert

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2011, 12:01:08 PM »
The 15th at Kingsley is a great bunkerless green.  It's an elevated green with run-offs on the front and two sides.  It allows for a lot of recovery options.

I actually thought about the same hole when I saw the title of the thread, but then remembered there is actually a bunker or two just over the back of the green.  Seen it come into play on the back pin once or twice.  Great green complex though!

You're absolutely right, Mike.  I overlooked those two bunkers because they blend into the hill on the back of the green.  Oh well.  Like you said, still a great green complex!

The Kingsley hole that should be mentioned on this thread is #12. An outstanding bunkerless green complex. 

Eric Smith

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2011, 12:14:32 PM »
The amazing 16th at Sand Hills. 

One of Matt Bosela's photos of the 16th:

Tim Nugent

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Re: Bunkerless Greens
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2011, 01:06:53 PM »
The fact that many examples come from across the pond illustrates a greater disposition to accept bunkerless greens/holes.  Perhaps several things conspired to give many Yanks a negative connotation. During the Depression and thereafter, the War years, many  courses eliminated bunkers as a cost cutting strategy.  This put a "we can't afford it" stigma on no bunkers.  Also, our lush fairways don't react to the ground game as well as F&F fescue. Plus around here in Chicago, we have fairly flat terrain so big, interesting, undulating landforms are not common and to produce them would be unnatural.
That said, there are courses both old and new here that have a bunkerless green (or 2). I was 1st introduced to one caddying at Onwensia.  Since they had more money than God, the lack of a bunker on the long par 4 18th green was by design, not economy.  Not only bunkerless, it was also at fairway grade (hence my term "fairway green").  Since most player came at it with a fairway wood, getting it to stop on the green surface was the trick.  A pair of huge Oak flanked the green (the one on the left pretty close) and more on a 10'-15' hillside behind created the visual.
We always tried to get one on our designs (like the bunkerless 12th at Kemper Lakes) or at Foxford Hills, I have 2 bunkerless holes and 3 bunkerless greens. And we did a bunkerless green #16 and bukerless hole #11 on the Starboard course at Harborside. My latest is the bunkerless 13th green at Effingham CC where annual flooding required the green to be elevated (benched into a hillside) so any fore bunkering would have been washed away and rear bunkeing wasn't needed due to the long length of the hole and we were able to carve up the hillside to add topographic relief.
Coasting is a downhill process

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