Let's Discuss INNISCRONE!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mike, where was there blind trouble?  

JB gave me the lines a few times off the tee (for ex, I recall on 2, aim left of a rock (maybe?).  I recall more blindness/blind trouble at Lederach and French Creek.







  I would like those who fancy the course to speak to how two blind tee shots with blind trouble should be weighted in an evaluation of the course.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

From 'Courses By Country':

'Inhis January 2000 FeatureInterview on this site, Hanse commented that someone whom he respects had told him that there are many features at Inniscrone he likes quite a bit but that in places it seemed Hanse had overdone things, trying to inject too many particular features into the course.'

That's exactly how I felt when playing there.

Michael Blake, do you have anything constructive to add, or are you just joining the me-too pile on? 

[JNC Lyon]

Mayday,

I'm not sure which tee shots you are talking about, because I felt most of the trouble was very visible off the tees.  If blind trouble does exist, it can be avoided by advance research and multiple plays.

Sean,

Some of the holes have that drama (minus the rough, which was way down when I played on Saturday), but many of the holes are very understated.  On the whole, the course relies on the existing land more than contrived heroics.  On holes where there is a do-or-die shot, Hanse gives players plenty of room, with kick plates to help the golfer avoid hazards and sling shots onto greens.  This is true on the 4th (although the kick plate could be wider here), the 8th, and the 17th.  Sean, I think you would like Inniscrone a lot.  It's subtlety was more surprising and impressive to me than its drama.

[Mark McKeever]

JNC,

3 and 4 are definitely my favorite holes out there.

Mark

[Michael Blake]

Hi Doug,

Certainly not piling on.
Just my opinion and the 'feel' I had there.

Check your PM.

[mike_malone]

 #10 and #5 have blind drives to areas with significant penalties.


   For the record, I play there whenever invited but don't recommend it.

[JNC Lyon]

#10 and #5 have blind drives to areas with significant penalties.


   For the record, I play there whenever invited but don't recommend it.

I'm still confused here.  5 is a par three where a player gets a full view of the green after coming off the 4th.  10 is straight downhill to a very wide fairway that only ends in wetlands at about 300 yards from the back tees.  The wetlands are visible from the tee, so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

10 is the weakest hole on the course, no doubt, and it would have been better if Hanse had built a more interesting green complex.  The 13th at Lederach is a hole that remains interesting even with the awkward wetlands crossing, and it is all because of the greensite.  If 10 at Inniscrone had that sort of green complex, it would be much more interesting.  Even so, it is not an unreasonable hole as is because there is plenty of room off the tee and on the approach.

[JNC Lyon]

    I've expressed my thoughts on Inniscrone many times here, and won't repeat them.  But, since yet another thread's been started, I can't resist summarizing.  I think it is one of the worst courses ever built by a quality architect trying to build a quality course.  Probably the best evidence of it's worth is the fact that it utterly failed.  And don't blame the location.  Plenty of good, out of the way places have done well.  (See Stonewall in the Philly area.)  As for a hole by hole critique, I'm too lazy to do it again.  My favorite beef, of course, is with the drop kick par three (the 4th, I think).  I'm convinced that Hanse mistakenly delivered a 17 hole course, and when the error was pointed out, threw in the drop kicker.

Jim, I have several problems with this critique, but two spring to mind:

1) What quality architect would not try to build a quality golf course?  That sentence makes zero sense, and I'm not sure what holes (besides maybe the 10th) you see as bad golf holes.

2) What is the issue with the 5th?  People love to make these comments about short par threes, and I think they are 100 percent garbage.  Was the 7th at Pebble Beach an add-in?  How about the Postage Stamp?  The 13th at Merion?  Tiny par threes have tremendous merit, and the 5th at Inniscrone requires a ton of control with a short club.  This type of par three is much more interesting and infinitely more challenging to a good player than a stock 175-yarder.

[Joe Bausch]

#10 and #5 have blind drives to areas with significant penalties.

I'll give you #10 Mayday.

But I'm assuming you mean #4 as the other, and I would not consider it a blind drive.  Yes, from the white tees you have to be careful to not tumble down left over the hill:

View from the tips:



View from the other tees:

[George Pazin]

I'm assuming he means the long 7th, with its drive around the corner.

I thoroughly enjoyed my day at Inniscrone. I can see someone not loving it, but I can't even begin to conceive of someone calling it the worst anything, unless it's simply the worst Hanse course, which is a little like saying a young beauty is the ugliest VS Angel...

I loved every hole on the front 9, save #5 (I have a personal problem with drop shot par 3s, haven't yet seen one I really like). I didn't enjoy the back quite as much - 10 is indeed odd, and 17 just kicked me in the nuts a couple times too many for me to be objective.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm assuming he means the long 7th, with its drive around the corner.

Ok, you might not see the ball land, and there is a bunker on the inside elbow that is blind....

[mike_malone]

 I guess I'm not tall enough but I can't see the green on #5 from the white tees and there is death long.

[JNC Lyon]

Joe,

There is a hidden bunker on 7, which, of course, is also visible from 3.  I thought that bunker is more effective by being hidden, because it makes the golfer uncertain as to the best line off the tee.  You might try to cut off the dogleg right on the first go at the hole, but, once you realize the bunker is there, it will make you re-evaluate on future players.  I think the bunker's hidden nature makes it more strategic over multiple rounds.

Again, I don't see the problem with hidden hazards on 5 and 7, because both of these hazards are visible from preceding holes.  A careful golf will realize there is trouble long on 5 and a bunker to the right on 7.

[Sean_A]

Mayday,

I'm not sure which tee shots you are talking about, because I felt most of the trouble was very visible off the tees.  If blind trouble does exist, it can be avoided by advance research and multiple plays.

Sean,

Some of the holes have that drama (minus the rough, which was way down when I played on Saturday), but many of the holes are very understated.  On the whole, the course relies on the existing land more than contrived heroics.  On holes where there is a do-or-die shot, Hanse gives players plenty of room, with kick plates to help the golfer avoid hazards and sling shots onto greens.  This is true on the 4th (although the kick plate could be wider here), the 8th, and the 17th.  Sean, I think you would like Inniscrone a lot.  It's subtlety was more surprising and impressive to me than its drama.

JNC

You could be right and the price is right to take a punt, but I can only be convinced on site.

Ciao

[Joe Bausch]

I guess I'm not tall enough but I can't see the green on #5 from the white tees and there is death long.

From the typical placement of the white tees, this isn't a problem unless you are 2' tall. 

But from all the way back on the back tee box, you can't see much of the green unless you are 10' tall.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I guess I'm not tall enough but I can't see the green on #5 from the white tees and there is death long.

From the typical placement of the white tees, this isn't a problem unless you are 2' tall. 

But from all the way back on the back tee box, you can't see much of the green unless you are 10' tall.

I'm not sure what the problem is with the 5th hole.  It's a sand wedge shot, and likely a half wedge at that.  Feel an 80-yard shot, aim for the correct half of the green, and just hit it. 

Looking at a few other holes, ok, there are some chutes on 4 and 17, but I recall Beechtree had some as well, and I don't recall anybody howling there. 

[mike_malone]

 I prefer #17 at Paxon Hollow to #5 at Inniscrone. I certainly experience more of a feeling that I see the trouble. I'm waiting for #12 Cobbs for sure

[Joe Bausch]

I prefer #17 at Paxon Hollow to #5 at Inniscrone. I certainly experience more of a feeling that I see the trouble. I'm waiting for #12 Cobbs for sure

Yes and me too. 

[mike_malone]

 I'm interested in comments on #16. Is the left option a good one? Is the blind approach from the right good?

[Joe Bausch]

I'm interested in comments on #16. Is the left option a good one? Is the blind approach from the right good?

IMO, left is clearly the preferred route on 16.  I aim at the embankment between the two fairways and swing hard.  A little draw leaves a view to just about all pins except for way right.  Block the drive a bit and the approach from the high road is semi-blind at best.

I love the hole partly b/c I've never played anything quite like it.

[Jim_Coleman]

    When I say Hanse (a quality architect) was hire to build a quality course, I mean he was hired to build a $50,000 initiation course, not a muni, which is what he built.  Among the other architecturally deficient holes is the 7th - a par five where the best line to shoot the lowest score is to hit the tee shot right at the people playing three - a great architectural concept if you're in the hardhat business.   I suppose this could be fixed by adding an internal out of bounds - a truly awful architectural feature.  I won't take the bait and go over all my issues again.  Let's just say I think the course stinks, and apparently the consuming public agrees.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

John/Joe/Kyle et al...

I'm in a bit late on this one, sorry.

We had a group of guests at PVGC we were entertaining and Pine Hill was unavailable for the afternoon so, at my behest, probably through the inspiration of GCA, we all went to Inniscrone.

The guests as well as my Pine Valley member were not terribly impressed.

However, I liked the course. My memory is a bit vague but I remember really liking the green complexes.

The property is challenging and I cant blame Gil Hanse  for some of the awkward holes. Yes, the tenth is an abomination but it is a very hilly property. John, what hole would you suggest as an alternative?

Not a great course for walking either.

None the less, I could move to this area of North Delaware/ SE PA and be very pleased to play this as my home course.

[mike_malone]

 Jim Coleman,

    Weren't Inniscrone and Fieldstone opened around the same time? I think that was one too many upscale private courses with demanding courses for that area. So, I'm not sure it was the architecture that is to blame for its demise but I do think it doesn't translate to the public's perception of good golf.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Not sure if Fieldstone and Inniscrone are considered to be in the same geographic area.  I do like Fieldstone, however, although there are some pretty tough walks between a couple of greens and tees.  If Fieldstone and Inniscrone were competing for the same customers, the far better course won.  Capitalism works again!

[Kyle Harris]

Let's just say I think the course stinks, and apparently the consuming public agrees.

They don't, the place was packed and has a solid following. We played on a cool, rainy morning and the range and tee sheet were booked. You're out of the loop on this one, it would seem.

And playing the 7th from the 3rd hole is a terrible route into that green - everything about the terrain is working away from you and carrying the bunker at the crest of the hill is difficult to say the least. While it may be the shortest route, it's hardly the most convenient or enticing. I've missed right off that tee enough to know that playing outside the turn is by far the superior route.

I really get the feeling that you need a second, or maybe third look at this place. Your opinion seems jaded by some other motivating factor. Did you pay a lot? Get caught in traffic? Run out of golf balls?

Mike Malone,

Add Hartefeld National to the mix for that area. I didn't even think of Fieldstone.

All,

Why is the 10th an abomination? I watched John hit a 30-40 yard hook with a DRIVER and hold the fairway. Have any of you played the golf course enough to actually figure out which shot to hit? Furthermore, the green is fully reachable from just in front of the forward tee (I've done this with 5wood).

How many times have the players not keen on the place played Inniscrone? It's definitely a golf course one needs to played a handful of times.

By the way, the 12th hole is a keen model for what 450-500 yard hole should be. 90 yards width of fairway, 30 of which is useful.