Dallas Morning News - 2011 Top Courses in Texas

[mike_beene]

Randy,here are a few guesses but not sure:The course was already laid out by one of the family members or by somebody with the summer youth camp.Then others told Mr Roberson he might have something so he got help.Also,this was never set up to be a money maker and they would rather not have you if you are any trouble,which makes the place very pleasant.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

Gun to your head (joking of course) -- you have 10 rounds to play -- how many at DN and how many at WP ?

One otherr question -- among ALL the courses you have ever played -- is WP a top ten? top 25 ? top 50?

Need some context to better understand the course. Loved the article I saw in the current Golf Mag.

Michael WP:

That's a huge compliment when you say WP is a top 50 course in the USA.

Really?

I'd have to know how many of the existing top 100 that GD has listed that you have played.

This would help me better understand your references for cross comparison purposes.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that local folks in Texas have long seen WP as a great golf course but others have been way behind in doing likewise.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

MATT..
I just counted up 36 out of the 100 I have played...perhaps top 50 was a little stretch but certainly belongs in the top 100.
In answer to the question above ten rounds...I play WP 7 or 8/10 versus Dallas National for example.

I am not at all a lover of somewhere like Whistling Straits..some percentage of rounds out of 10.

[Greg Clark]

WP is not a Signature Design by Nicklaus.  I'm not sure that Jack himself had much, if anything to do with the design (I have been told this from several people), which is why I believe the powers that be at WP make sure that Chet Williams gets his due.

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

10 rounds at WP or DN?  Let me play 2 at each then decide on the remainder.  I've played WP when it was slow and wet, and it was not much fun.  I played it in drought conditions with the best, nearly grainless Champion (I'm fairly sure, but a bermuda ultra-dwarf anyways) greens I've ever putted on and it was a riot.  But of the two, DN gets my slight nod.

I think I've played around half (+/- a couple) of the courses on the GD list with greater concentration in the top half, and between 50-75 would be a good slot for WP (I don't have major issues overall with the GD list).  I'll do a personal top 100 after taxes and travel in a couple of weeks, but I suspect that WP would fall toward the end of the top 50 to 70.  I do place considerable weight on the routing followed closely by variety and balance.  IMO, WP falls a bit short on the first, but does well on the last two.

Re: WP and Chet W, Trey Kemp can address this better than me as his employer knows Chet pretty well.  As Greg notes, reportedly, Chet was mostly responsible for what's on the ground today.  I don't think that Nicklaus spent any time working on the site, maybe not even literally.  Other than to aid a course and development through the use of his name, I get the impression from people who've worked closely with Nicklaus that he is very generous for giving credit to whom it is due.

[Andy Hodson]

Lou,

Thanks for the kind words. WP is a special place. Regarding the routing, it is my understanding that Mr. Robertson, the owner, staked out most of the routing, walking through the scrubby brush with wooden stakes to show the teeing area, mid fairway point and greens. It was going to be a course just for his friends and him. Once the idea of the charity came about and his vision of an International amateur team competition (The Spirit) came about, I think he realized he needed a professional to build it. Thus, NDG and Chet Williams. I don't believe Jack ever set foot on the property. In fact, Chet told me of a story that when JN was building Carlton Woods,and a bit stuck on what to do with a certain par 5, he asked Chet, "What did we do at that course in Trinity?". He was referring to #2 at WP, and now one of the holes at CW bears a very similiar resemblance.

Sam,

Is there now a waterfall on #18??? Was it always there and I just blocked it out of my memory?? And I agree #18 may be the weakest hole on the course, not in terms of difficulty (its a bear), but it seems out of place with the others.

[Sam Morrow]

Lou,

Thanks for the kind words. WP is a special place. Regarding the routing, it is my understanding that Mr. Robertson, the owner, staked out most of the routing, walking through the scrubby brush with wooden stakes to show the teeing area, mid fairway point and greens. It was going to be a course just for his friends and him. Once the idea of the charity came about and his vision of an International amateur team competition (The Spirit) came about, I think he realized he needed a professional to build it. Thus, NDG and Chet Williams. I don't believe Jack ever set foot on the property. In fact, Chet told me of a story that when JN was building Carlton Woods,and a bit stuck on what to do with a certain par 5, he asked Chet, "What did we do at that course in Trinity?". He was referring to #2 at WP, and now one of the holes at CW bears a very similiar resemblance.

Sam,

Is there now a waterfall on #18??? Was it always there and I just blocked it out of my memory?? And I agree #18 may be the weakest hole on the course, not in terms of difficulty (its a bear), but it seems out of place with the others.

I think there is a waterfall on 18. When I come off 17 (an awesome hole) I close my eyes all the way through 18, take my bogey and go home.

[Andy Hodson]

A bogey on the 18th with your eyes closed is a helluva score, Sam!

[Steve Lang]

  Sam, are you referring to the upper lake overflow to Lake Livingston as a waterfall?  

I remember 18 as an easy par....

  Andy, when was the last time you were back at WP?

and lets not forget WP is a great walk


the subject "waterfall" area..  drainage boys drainage.. without erosion..


back on the DMN's 2nd half 50-100 list.. though i really like the front nine at Memorial, except for #9, there's no way Memorial Park should be rated at #62 or Augusta Pines at #77...

something smells rotten..

[mike_beene]

I am talking about the rock work to the left of the green.Maybe Trump wouldn't think it is a waterfall but I count it.It is really not on the course so it gets a pass.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

C'mon Lou - if you have ten rounds how do you split them up between DN and WP ?

Also, can you explain to me how Champions (both courses) are still being rated as top tier
ciourses. No dount the respect for Burke is there -- but where's the architecture ?

[Sam Morrow]

Lou:

C'mon Lou - if you have ten rounds how do you split them up between DN and WP ?

Also, can you explain to me how Champions (both courses) are still being rated as top tier
ciourses. No dount the respect for Burke is there -- but where's the architecture ?

Matt where in the Texas rankings would you put the two courses?

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

I have not played WP but I am very impressed that the course has been at the top of the heap in the Lone Star State but when you look at the major pubs it's practically invisible.

I've played DN and really enjoyed it. One of TF's best works -- but if WP is ahead of it, as many are claiming, then I have to wonder if national raters have been asleep at the switch.

Just proves what I said on raters in general terms -- better to have more weight given to those who live in a given state because they see such courses more frequently than the one and done outsiders.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

I have not played WP but I am very impressed that the course has been at the top of the heap in the Lone Star State but when you look at the major pubs it's practically invisible.

I've played DN and really enjoyed it. One of TF's best works -- but if WP is ahead of it, as many are claiming, then I have to wonder if national raters have been asleep at the switch.

Just proves what I said on raters in general terms -- better to have more weight given to those who live in a given state because they see such courses more frequently than the one and done outsiders.

How would you rank the Champions courses amongst the rest in Texas?

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
This whole bit about Whispering Pines not getting national recognition isn't particularly accurate...

Whispering Pines is in the current Golf Magazine Top 100, its #32 on the GolfWeek Modern list, and #2 in Texas for Golf Digest (not sure if it has enough ballots for 100 Greatest). That's roughly equal overall with Dallas National, which is on Golf Digest but not Golf Magazine.

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Candidly, I have not played the full range of courses in Texas that more active folks have -- among the current listing by the Dallas Morning News I have played roughly 15 of the total 50. I have never thought much about Champions and frankly much of Houston golf because it is so utterly flat and more often than not quite nondescript. I'd be interested in hearing from people who think Champions deserves all the plaudits.

Andy:

GW does mention it - so does Golf Mag but where is Digest for its top 100 placement ? Yes, it's rated #2 in the state poll -- but if the folks at the Dallas Morning News have it as #1 -- for the last five (5) years -- where have the Digest raters been to get it to #1 and to have it among their top 100 poll. Looks to me like the state people are a few steps ahead of the national raters for Digest.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

Candidly, I have not played the full range of courses in Texas that more active folks have -- among the current listing by the Dallas Morning News I have played roughly 15 of the total 50. I have never thought much about Champions and frankly much of Houston golf because it is so utterly flat and more often than not quite nondescript. I'd be interested in hearing from people who think Champions deserves all the plaudits.

Andy:

GW does mention it - so does Golf Mag but where is Digest for its top 100 placement ? Yes, it's rated #2 in the state poll -- but if the folks at the Dallas Morning News have it as #1 -- for the last five (5) years -- where have the Digest raters been to get it to #1 and to have it among their top 100 poll. Looks to me like the state people are a few steps ahead of the national raters for Digest.

What other courses in the Houston area have you played?

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

Champions (36 holes)
Lochinvar
Bear Creek
Memorial
Blue Bonnet
The Woodlands

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

Champions (36 holes)
Lochinvar
Bear Creek
Memorial
Blue Bonnet
The Woodlands

Which courses at The Woodlands? In fairness Matt you can't lump Bear Creek and Bluebonnet into your assessment of real golf courses in Houston. If you played The Masters in the 80's then yes, but since then that's crazy. As for Bluebonnet that's a glorified par 3 course that gets mowed around midterm elections. It's also in Plantersville and good hike from anywhere in the Houston area.

[Andy Hodson]

Steve,

Its been 5 years or so since I last played WP. And I think my last year of employment there was 2003 (). I think that's right. Last time I played there the greens were stimping at 13. Since Dieckhoff has been as supt. there, its a entirely different course than when we played there with Lou and the Mack Brown bashing Tiger Bernhardt.

And I'm a bit surpriised at your assessment of Memorial. I'd have it much higher. And in your neighborhood, while I really liked the Nicklaus Carlton Woods course, the best course up there is the Player course, esp. if you forget the 8th hole. Really good and quirky. A nice combination of fun and hard.

And where is Westwood CC?? Really solid track after the re-do.

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

I have played all the courses at The Woodlands. Played Blue Bonnet just to fill the time as I was traveling through the area with my wife.

I played Bear Creek during the '81 US Public Links so it's been some time since I was there.

What would you consider Lochinvar ? An executive coursse ?

[Matt_Ward]

Sam:

To clarify -- The Woodlands CC (Tournament Course) and the Palmer and Player courses.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

I have played all the courses at The Woodlands. Played Blue Bonnet just to fill the time as I was traveling through the area with my wife.

I played Bear Creek during the '81 US Public Links so it's been some time since I was there.

What would you consider Lochinvar ? An executive coursse ?

I've never played Lochinvar, I've heard it's very good. Hardly an executive course.

[Andy Hodson]

But it is a course for executives...non distaff division of course

[Sam Morrow]

But it is a course for executives...non distaff division of course

Complete lack of tail though.